Regular Meeting

Hello. Heat. Heat. call to order the January 42nd meeting of the Kerry Town Council. And at this time, I'll re recognize Council Member Hong for our ceremonial opening.

Good evening everyone and thank you all

for being here tonight. And also thank you as well to those watching online. And first of all, I would love to recognize the Kerry Chinese Senior Group. They performed their wonderful singing and dances today at uh Herbert Young Community Center for us. and the president Avian welcome to stand up and uh say hi to everyone and also they have their own orchestra. Every music is just live music. It's amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. And um uh last Saturday evening we were uh at the Kerry Art Center celebrate the uh Dreamfest Festival and there's a a lot of people turn out and also this past week we had the uh Martin Luther King Day. It is it is a time to reflect on Dr. King's enduring message of peace, compassion, and service to others. As we look ahead this weekend, um we are expecting a potentially severe ice storm and I encourage everyone to prepare and store enough food and uh stay safe with your families. Um our public works and police and fire departments will be working diligent diligently to ensure our communities uh remain safe. Even as we prepare for the storm, the walk for peace continues. This Saturday, uh, Buddhist monks are expected to undercarry regardless of the weather. Their commitment to continue their journey is a power reminder that peace is not passive. It is a choice built through continued effort, respect, and compassion. We are deeply grateful to live in Kerry, a peaceful, resilient, and caring community. Here in Kerry, our high quality of life does not happen by accident. It is a result of teamwork.

It comes from our people and it's very foundation of Kerry. With this strong foundation, Kerry will continue to move forward and remain strong. With gratitude for our shared values, please stand up and join me in the pledge of allegiance. to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [clears throat] We're now at the third item on the agenda, which is the adoption of the agenda, and I would entertain a motion to do so.

So move.

There's a motion.

Second.

And the second discussion. All in favor, please say I.

I.

Any [clears throat] oppose? Motion carries unanimously.

Due to special weather expected in carry, our interim manager has asked for our fire chief, Mike Cooper, to give a special update. Chief Cooper. Good evening, Mayor and Council. We are mobilized and prepared for mixed bag of adverse weather conditions that are is forecasted for our area this weekend. Our decisions are rooted in past experiences, and we're working closely with local, county, and our state partners. All major thorough and secondary streets will be treated with brine by the end of business tomorrow to help treat uh the roads for slick conditions should freezing precipitation occur. Staff has inventoried and prepared critical supplies including generators, chainsaws, and tire chains. We have 3,000 tons of salt, 400 tons of salt and sand mixture staged along with well over 600 staff ready to respond across all departments. Council, we are

ready and we cannot emphasize how critical it is for our citizens to do the same and be prepared for prolonged power outages. Citizens should consider stocking essential supplies, know how to shut off their master water valve, charge portable devices in case of outages. Ice and cold are the real risk. If the power goes out, temperatures indoors can drop quickly. Citizens should know how to stay warm safely. They should also remember that 911 is reserved for imminent threats to life and property. And for everything else, there's carry 311. At this time, there are no impacts to town services or schedules due to the weather. We will continue to update the community through our communication channels as changing conditions warrant. Please follow us across all social media channels at carnc.gov and stay safe this weekend. Also want to note that we've been in constant communication with the Buddhist monks on their peaceful pilgrimage that will take them through Kerry Saturday morning ahead of the weather. Around sunrise, we expect the monks to move down US 64 from Apex High School to Try Road where we will provide safe passage and a mobile restroom for their convenience. carry police and fire will escort and provide traffic control and safe passage until Yates Meal Pond Road where Raleigh first responders will take over. There are no expected stops and carry and we are truly honored to be part of their journey and wish them continued peace and safe travels. Thank you.

Thank you, Chief.

Yeah, I was

Yeah,

sorry to interrupt. Um, I had a question from a citizen today who's newer to carry and I was hoping that somebody on staff, perhaps Russ, can address the availability and safety of water even when power is out, even if it's out um

for more than a day or two. Um, and you know, I was asked, do I need to go get bottled water? And I

you should not, but u Jaime's not prepared, but he's in the seat up there to maybe ask that he come up and address that.

Thank you. As y'all know from past work sessions, Jamie loves te talking about water. So, I'd hate to take that opportunity away from him. [laughter]

And I know you're great on the spot, Jamie.

Good evening, council. And uh thanks for the opportunity. Yes, we uh we maintain standby power at all of our big plants and facilities and uh especially at the Carry Apex Water Treatment Facility. We not only have standby power generators, but they're also banked together. So, if any one generator fails, the other generators pick up the load. So, we've been checking the fuel supplies all week. We're um we're totally prepared and ready to go.

So, no one needs to purchase bottled water.

They really don't need to in Carrie, but um but you know, if they want to be extra safe, I'm not going to stop them, but we we feel very confident that the water will be running just fine in Carrie.

Thank you. Yes, ma'am.

Appreciate that.

Good question. Thank you so much.

Okay. Our next item on the agenda is public speaks out. Before we begin, I want to thank all of you that are here to speak at public speaks out and say that uh I know many of you have concerns, questions, comments, and we welcome those. Uh personally, I would like to invite you to meet with me. Uh if you have concerns or questions or comments that you think I need to know, I welcome it. uh there's availability availability online to fill out a form, meet with me or any council member and we always invite that. I can also say we're doing our best to be transparent and open about everything that's happening and as soon as we get it, we'll put it out there. And having said that, excuse me, now is the time for public speaks out. We've included instructions for speaking at this forum online and on the printed agenda. There were three opportunities to participate in public speaks out through written comments, by calling in or by attending

here in person tonight. If you are here in person and would like to speak, I would ask that you take a seat in the rows to my right that are highlighted. Public speaks out have three minutes each for their comments and may speak on any town related topic as long as it's not a public hearing. And that's to your benefit. You get more time at a public hearing. The threeminut time limit will be enforced, not to be rude, but to be fair to all of our speakers. There is a timer on the podium. It will start off with a green light. When you have 30 seconds remaining, it will turn yellow. And when your time is expired, it will flash red. And that's the point I will interrupt you. Again, not trying to be rude, but trying to be fair to all of our speakers. I would ask that pe speakers please be respectful and to address the entire council as a whole rather than an individual member. This is a business meeting and public speaks out is limited to one hour. Please refrain from applauding speaking from your seats using props or engaging in behavior that may distract from the meeting. interruptions, including imp applause, take away from the time speakers have and reduce available public speaks out time. I thank you in advance for please keeping this in mind at this portion of the meeting to make it more effective and more respectful. Please also note that the forum is intended for council to listen to public comment. While we may direct staff to follow up, council typically does not respond to comments during public speaks out. Each council member is available, as I mentioned, to meet with you outside of this forum. And we welcome you to have these conversations. You may reach us by email, by 311 or direct meeting request form, or just what whatever way you can contact me, please let me know.

I'll be glad to meet with you. So, now is the time for public speaks out. And first, I'll call on the clerk to read any written comments and call on any registered speakers.

We had eight written comments. These have been emailed to council prior to the meeting, provided to council um at your seat and also attached to the online agenda for accessibility. Our first um inerson speaker, registered speaker is Naomi Alexander, followed by Thomas Alexander.

Thank you. Okay.

Hello, Mr. Mayor, council members, ladies and gentlemen. My name is Naomi Alexander and along with my brothers William and Thomas, we are the 15-year-old triplet grandchildren of George Bailey and the grand niece and nephews of Herbert Bailey, owners of Vermemell Place, the affordable housing proposal before this body. We are freshman at Kerry High and are often referred to as the A team. The Bailey family legacy of which we represent the fourth living gen generation was established as a lasting acknowledgement and means to honor our ancestors. Our family contributions and our longlasting ties to the Kerry community. Vermel Stewart Evans was our great great grandmother. Her daughter Vermel Evans Bailey and Joseph Herbert Bailey, our great-grandparents are the foundational names for the Bailey family legacy. The Evans Road community where we reside was formed largely by our great greatgrandfather Clyde Albert Evans senior with land from his 100 acre farm. West Kerry Middle School, formerly the Clyde Albert Evans High School, is located on this road on land sold and gifted by Otis Norphy Evans. And the Kerry First Christian Church, is on land sold and gifted by Clyde and Vermel Evans. There are 14 streets in Kerry named for family members within this within five subdivisions owned,

developed, and built by the Bailey family. Duchess Village, the first family subdivision, is on land owned and settled by Nancy Marsh, the grandmother of Clyde and Otis Norphy. And it was in this home in 1875 that Charlie and Matilda Evans, parents of Clyde, his brother, and his other siblings, were married. Most of these are now buried under the Turner Evans Cemetery just off High House Road. and Kerry Bayoke Drive. The main street of this subdivision is derive derived from the f Bailey name and the stately oak trees on this site. Jerry Miller deceased renowned Kerry artist painted the old Clyde Amber Mill Evans home place capturing in particular large oak trees in the front yard. These oaks have always represented endurance strength and lasting family love. The proposed Vermemell place located off Rey Creek Road is aligned with that same purpose. our family's way of giving back to our Kerry community, our home, not as means to make tons of money. The land itself could have been privately sed sold or developed for other far more lucrative purposes in keeping with our family tradition of community helping others doing positive and beneficial things to be a force for good. All these form the crux of our deeprooted motivation behind this affordable housing proposal. A recent agreement between Taff Mills and the Bailey family legacy hopefully results in a viable means to bring this all to fruition. Only with the necessary and expeditious regard from this body can this be achieved. Please, only together can this be done. Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Thomas Alexander followed by um William Alexander. My name is Thomas Alexander, grandson of of George Bailey. Tonight I would like to read to you a letter from Green

Greenwood Forest Baptist Church and one oneway support for affordable housing pro proposal from the Bailey family legacy which I am a part of. Dear Kerry Town Council and staff, we've we've had the pleasure to get to know more about the project at 777 Rudy Creek Road. We understand the that the Bailey family wishes to dedicate their last major real estate project for to affordable housing. Our church's role in advocating affordable housing to the point of building it to our land is well well known and we're glad to see others in the care community commit committing the themselves to this cause. The 90 unit requested here are even more than we're able to build on our our site and we can't think of a better way to use this land. It's close to transit groceries and other amenities makes it a wonderful site for affordable housing. Vermont's place will be tremendous assets to our community. The leadership greenhouse forest baptist church is support of this project and urges for your support as well. We've had we've had the pleasure to get to know more know more about the project Riy Creek Road. One one one wake is very supportive of this project and so include it in our

list of proposals during our October 2025 candidate assembly and carry. The units requested here are needed and we can't think of a better way to use this lint. Its closeness, transit, groceries, stores and other amenities make makes it a wonderful site and for affordable housing remotes place will be a tremendous asset to our community. One wake wakes team wants to offer for its support behind this project. sincerely the one wake strategies team.

Thank you, Mr. Alexander.

Our next speaker is um William Alexander.

And the speaker after William is Sue Nol. Hello, my name is William Alexander, grandson of George Bailey. Tonight, I would like to read to you a letter from Reverend Cynthia Mccantsz, pastor at Kerry First Christian Church in support for the affordable housing proposed from the Bailey family legacy of which I am a part of that legacy. The Bailey family has long been an integral part of Kerry First Christian Church and the broader Kerry community for generations. Their legacy has been marked by generosity, integrity, and a steadfast commitment to improving lives. The needs of the community have always been central to the Bailey family values, guiding efforts to uplift other others through selfless service and giving. This dedication is evident through car's history. The Bailey family has consistently open their hands and hearts to meet community need, donating land for schools, churches, and homes whenever there was a need. Their contributions have helped shape the

physical and moral landscape of this town. The proposed project at 777 Rita Creek Road continues with that same spirit of compassion and vision. The development of Vermal's Place, an affordable housing community on Bailey family land is a timely response to the growing economic challenges facing community families in Kerry. As the cost of living rises, this project offers hope, providing quality, affordable housing for those striving to make ends meet. The location of Verml's Place is particularly well suited for families with proximity to grocery stores, daycare centers, and local churches. It aligns perfectly with Car's vision for inclusive neighborhoods where all residents can thrive. As a faith community, the leadership and members of Kerry First Christian Church fully support the Bailey family. And in this effort, we recognize that this project is not only about constructing buildings, but about building lives, strengthening families, and extending the legacy of compassion. The 90 proposed housing units will make a meaningful contribution to addressing one of our city's most urgent needs and will serve as a model of faith and community partnership. The Bailey family has always exemplified what it means to serve God and neighbor with love and purpose. Furlmost place continues that ministry, honoring the past, meeting today's needs, and preparing for a more equitable future. We stand united with Bailey family in prayer, partnership, and public public support as they seek approval for this vital project. By moving forward with Vermal's Place, Kerry will not only expand its stock of affordable housing, but also reaffirm its commitment to being a community where compassion and opportunity coexist. With every blessing, Reverend Cynthia E. Mccantsz and Reverend Lionel Carney. Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Sue Nol followed by Dan Pike. Dear mayor and the town council members, my name is Suni. I am a Kerry resident.

Thank you for the opportunity to share this request with you tonight. I also appreciate the continued the conversation with intrim town manager Ross Overton and Jang calling director of park recreation and cultural resource and new council member Bella Hang. Table tennis is a growing activity in Kerry especially for seniors, families and young players. However, currently access through town programming is extremely limited. At this time, there is only one 2.5 hour table tennis session per week schedule at the Kerry Senior Center and it's limited to those who have registered for that program. I was told that at least 30 people are already registered. No additional registration is being accepted and there are only two tables for all participants to share. So remember 2.5 hours per wake two tables that's for all carry resident. This clearly demonstrate a strong demand and shows that Kerry residents are seeking more opportunity for safe accessible indoor recreation. I understand it is difficult for the town to fund and build a new facility at this time, especially since the 2024 Kerry community bound referendum did not pass. With that in mind, I would like to respectfully propose two lowcost more immediately

option to expand table tennis opportunities for Kerry residents. Option one, instead of building a new facility, the town could explore repurposing an existing space into a dedicated table tennis room. Table tennis has relatively low facility requirements compared to many other sports and it can operate well in a converted space with enough floor area for tables and a safe playing zones. Adequate seating heights and night storage for tables and basive equipment. This approach could provide assistant as consistent access without large capital project.

I'm so sorry I have to interrupt you. Your time is expired. But we would like to read your comments if you could leave them with the clerk.

That be okay.

Okay.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Dan Pike, followed by Heffen Williams. Good evening, mayor, council members, and interim town manager. My name is Dan Pike, and my wife Joy and I are 28y year residents of downtown Kerry, and I'm honored to serve as the board president of the Kerry Downtown Farmers Market. The farmers market is 30 years old this year and is held every Saturday morning from 9:00 a.m. to 12 during the winter season and 8:00 a.m. to 12 during our traditional market season. I'm here this evening on behalf of our board vendors and patrons to simply say thank you. Thank you to the town for allowing us to

host our weekly farmers market on Park Street adjacent to the beautiful downtown Kerry Park. We're also incredibly grateful for the park staff who help make the atmosphere so welcoming and special each week. In particular, we'd like to recognize three downtown Kerry Park employees. Ryan O'Quinn, who is a program specialist and is our park liaison. We have a meeting with Ryan each month to get updates, coordinate events, and to asssure all aspects of our partnership is solid. Next, we would like to express our appreciation to a pair of activity hosts, Walker Ler and Joe Perion. Each week prior to the market opening, Walker and Joe set up road barriers, cord covers, trash, and recycling receptacles, and then they break down everything once the market closes. They do all of this with positive attitudes, genuine smiles, and a willingness to do whatever is needed to support our market. We make a point to thank them very often, but we felt it's very important that you know what exceptional team members they are and how consistently they demonstrate excellence. 2025 was an incredibly successful year for the vendors of the Kerry Farmers Market. We made significant strides in providing resources to families facing food insecurity, providing fresh produce to Dorcas, now neighbor up, their food pantry, and in educating youth on the importance of eating a colorful variety of foods. In addition, we are proud of our market serving as a community meeting place not only for Kerry residents, but visitors as well. We're a place where people spend time and actually talk to each other, socializing and being friendly without having their faces in their phones. Walker and Joe help us provide this uh safe and healthy environment each week. We are currently finalizing our annual report and expect to share that with council within the

next month. We look forward to returning to this podium to highlight our accomplishments and demonstrate how our small nonprofit continues to enhance the town of Kerry. If you haven't visited the Kerry Farmers Market, don't be shy. Come and see what we're all about. We'd love to include you in our community. Thank you again for allowing us to hold our market on Park Street and for employing such outstanding in individuals like Ryan Walker and Joe who serve the citizens of Kerry so well. Thanks.

Thank you, Mr. Pike.

Our next speaker is Hanaf Williams followed by Renee Miller. I think I need this.

Mr. Williams, are you here?

We'll go to We'll go to Renee Miller.

Okay.

Good evening, Mayor and Council. As I reviewed the agenda for tonight's meeting, I couldn't help but pause on the discussion item that is the last item on the agenda in which um about $250,000 is to be authorized in order to review the situation with the town manager. That's quite a lot of money. And having been in the consulting field myself um many years ago, I um I I started thinking about that and then realized that with the attorneys that are being hired to do this getting paid $644 an hour, what we're authorizing is about 388 hours of work. And yet I think we're going to be missing some opportunities. We often hear affirmed what a crackerjack staff we have here in Kerry. And I'm wondering when why we're not

utilizing that staff talent. When something like this has happens in a private business, it becomes the priority of the business and many things are dropped or set aside for a time whilst the business takes care of what it needs to do to heal. I believe that's what mis what kind of a missed opportunity we may have here because with staff working on this problem I believe that it's an opportunity to redevelop trust with each other and the relationships with the staff at many different levels. So I ask as you are considering this in your discussion tonight that you think about some of the things that have already happened. Several council members have already suggested some changes to policy that staff could already be working on. And it seems to me that while legal review is an excellent idea, I think that staff work with the idea first will be less expensive and will ultimately allow our town to move forward more quickly and effectively. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Williams. Good evening, mayor, council members, madame clerk. Exactly two weeks ago, I stood before this local executive branch inside of these chambers with the gallery that was near to capacity. Though I appreciate the correspondence that I have received and even some of the meetings that took place in between that time, I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge my profound perplexity and what appears to be an intentional and deliberate oblivion to the raised

concerns of the residents of Kerry. I think it's very important to mention and to remind each of you, with the exception of the interim uh town manager, when you all ran for office, you were not having one-on-one private meetings with the people who you wanted to vote for you. You spoke very clearly. You did not release statements that appeared to be written by lawyers. You talked about issues very directly and clearly. Now with some controversy that we need to be mature and professional adults that there are active investigations that are some things that this particular council cannot speak of. However, I proposed on January the 12th that each of you received to have a town hall style meeting with the residents of Kerry where questions can be asked publicly and they can be answered publicly. I was received the response back that said something like that is planned. I want to know when it was pl when is it planned? When is that going to happen? Because in these public speaks out which it was said that this is a one-way conversation and there's no such thing as a one-way conversation. It's a one a conversation is when two people speak and this is what psychology.com and Harvard University has went and done studies on what that's like. This is this is just us speaking and not receiving any answers. And that creates a problem. And in closing, until this council gets this fire that you all ignited

in a way where people can be heard, it's going to continue to burn. It will and it will not be extinguished. I yield my time.

Next speaker.

No. No additional register speakers. If you are here in the audience and would like to speak at public speaks out, now is your opportunity.

Good evening, Mayor and Council. My name is Dave Forendell. I've lived in Kerry since 1992. Over the years, I've had the pleasure of serving the town and various boards, commissions, and task force. Believe me, it hurts me much to see what's happening to our town, and it pains me to address you tonight. Much has been said about all the inappropriate actions and misappropriations of funds, inappropriate personal spending and such by our former town manager. These are very serious matters, and I think they're being addressed in an appropriate manner. What I'm afraid of is other more nefarious activities that are going that go directly to the accountability and public trust of the council that are not getting the public attention they deserve. For example, on December 15th, reported, quote, "Records also indicate that the town bought land near Kerry Elementary School totaling more than $1 million against the recommendation of the assistant town manager, and not every town council member knew of this transaction." end quote. Okay. Which town council member or members did have prior knowledge or were involved in that transaction? We all know that backroom deals and compromises are all part of the game, and that's fine, but only when they're ultimately brought to the council for a vote. I find it very disturbing that a council member or members may have conspired with Mr. Steaggle to advance some land use agenda that was contrary to staff recommendations.

Was there fear that the land purchases could not be achieved by bringing them to a vote of the full council? Was there fear that they would not meet with citizen approval? Who had such a sense of entitlement that they believe that they and the former town manager could make such decisions without a vote from the full council and knowledge of the citizens. No such shadow government can be tolerated by the citizens of Kerry. nor should other council members stand by and let such actions go unpunished. The council promises full transparency. If this is true, it's past time to name names. Again, if the town c if which town council member members did have prior knowledge or were involved in these transactions, I call on any member of council, past or present, that has firsthand knowledge of any council member's involvement with these unethical land purchases to step forward. To remain silent is to be guilty of collusion and this miscarriage of government, fiscal irresponsibility, and breach of public trust. This goes much deeper than politics and friendships. This is about personal accountability and putting the town and the citizens first. You all took an oath of office. I implore you to honor it. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. Next speaker, please. [clears throat] Good evening. My name is Andrew Hos. I'm here to remind us all to love our neighbors and to love our enemies. Our nation seems to be descending into chaos caused by rapid partisanship. But what unites us as one nation under God is far more than what divides us.

Here's a quote from a statement published November 11th by the mayor's office. Quote, regarding ICE activities in Kerry, regardless of one's stance on immigration, I think we can all agree that the tactics used in these operations instill fear in our community and erode trust between our citizens and the government put in place to protect, support, and serve them." My work has involved travel to 54 countries. For nine years, I lived in South Africa under volunteer visitor visas, where every visa application and renewal required proof that my volunteer work was not taking a paying job from a citizen of South Africa. We need elected p elected public servants to defend law enforcement, carrying out lawful court orders when a judge orders the arrest of individuals convicted of violent crimes, smuggling drugs, and/or human trafficking on top of breaking and entering our country. ICE is not targeting legal visitors or migrants. So, November's official statement seems dishonest and frustrating. If any officer of the law needs to conceal his or her identity, it's only to protect their families because of a surge of death threats and attacks or terrorists dial 911 to falsely report violent crime into progress, a practice known as swatting. If we needed an official town statement about federal law enforcement activities at schools, daycarees, hospitals, restaurants, and construction sites, maybe remind citizens not to commit attempted murder by doxing, swatting, or trying to run them over. US home prices are inflated in part because of the pressure of non-citizens on our housing market. Take-home pay is lower because of slave wages paid to illegal migrants. Kerry is a great place to live and but

it's only by upholding the rule of law can we continue to be one of the most desirable communities in America. Just because you may not personally agree with a democratically elected law doesn't mean that we get to pretend that enforcing it is always wrong. Policies being demonized by leftists are overwhelmingly popular with both party affiliated and independent voters like myself. We don't need to descend into another bloody civil war. Let's accept election results and not commit insurrection. With everyone's help, the next generation commit graduating high school and college can find jobs, buy houses at this time.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir.

Next speaker, please.

Anyone else for public speaks out? Going once, going twice. Okay, we'll close public speaks out and move to the consent agenda portion of our meeting. If you're following along this item four for the benefit of people watching our meeting on TV, I'll take a moment to review the consent agenda items. Please keep in mind that one vote approves all of these items. On the consent agenda, we have go carry title six program update, adoption of 2026 work plans and recommended environmental advisory board appointment. Would council members like either of these items pulled from the consent agenda for discussion? If not, I would entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda.

So move to approve.

Second.

There's a motion and a second. Discussion. All in favor, please say I.

I. Any opposed? Motion carries unanimously. That takes us to public hearings. Same rules apply public hearings that applied for public speaks

out with one exception. Speakers now have five minutes each for their comments. The first public hearing is Feral Road assemblage annexation and 25 rez Ferrell Road reszoning. They'll be held together. Assistant Planning Director Katie Dry will introduce the item and council will not take action. Instead, it will be referred to our planning and zoning board for their review and recommendation. Miss Dry.

Uh, good evening, Mayor and Council. This is a request to annex and apply initial carry zoning to 153 acres located um on West Feral Road West in Chadam County. The public hearing tonight will be for both the reszoning and the annexation. So, we will begin with the annexation. And first, we'll orient you to where the site's located. On the map, you can see um NC540 located to the east. As you travel westward, you can locate Green Level West Road and then the Chattam County Wake County line is shown with a black dash line. The site for the proposed resoning and annexation is within Chhattam County along Mount Pisga Road, Feral Road West, and Barbie Road. It is within our joint land use plan area with Chowam County, and I'll talk a little bit further about that within the presentation. And so, because of that, it's eligible um for the property owner to request annexation. This assemblage is actually broken into two pods. The southern pod is contiguous to car's corporate limits and the northern pod is not. Because the northern portion is not contiguous, it is classified as a satellite annexation. Contiguous and satellite annexations must meet certain criteria for annexation as specified in the North Carolina general statutes. There are additional criteria for satellite annexations. And in this case, both the contiguous and the satellite annexation

area meet the criteria and are eligible for annexation request. As noted in the annexation staff report, the site is able to be served by utilities and it is within the serviceable area by carry fire. In the future, we anticipate the site will be served by the potential fire station 11 and in the interim it can be served by fire station 8. Staff provided Chadam County with notice of the annexation and the reasonzoning as required. And as a reminder, no action is needed on the annexation tonight. It will return to you at a later date to align with the decision for the resoning. Now that we've rec now that we've covered the annexation, I will transition our review to the resoning request. This map is zoomed in a bit further so you can uh see the locationational context. There is site frontage along Ferrell Road West, Barbie Road, and Mount Pisga Church Road. The site's just west of the Bryson Nature Preserve located on Ernest Jones Road, which is owned by the town of Kerry. It's north of the Destin and Wood Hall subdivision within K's jurisdiction and east of the Windy Hill neighborhood in Chadam County. According to our GIS map, stream buffers are located on the site and field determination would be determined at the time of the development plan review. The parks, recreation, and culture resources uh master plan includes a section of the greenway a greenway corridor in the northeastern corner of the northern pod for this site. and there are no existing greenway or streetside trails within or adjacent to the site. Barrel Road West is a two-lane undivided thoroughfare on K's future roadway widths map. And when it comes to the zoning, the

site is currently in Chattam County and it has a Chattam County zoning of residential one. And so the applicant is proposing an initial town of Kerry zoning of residential 8 conditional use. The applicant has offered conditions including a concept plan which is shown here on the right. The zoning conditions include a limit of a maximum of 230 detached dwellings with accessory dwelling units. This is an overall growth density of about 1.5 dwelling units per acre. There will be a maximum of 122 units in pod one, which is the southern pod, and 108 units in pod 2, which is the northern pod. Conditions would include a minimum lot size of 10,000 square ft. This exceeds the minimum of 8,000 square feet, which would otherwise be permitted in the R8 zoning district. The 10,000 square foot lots would be allowed in the pink area that's shown on the concept plan. And in addition along the perimeter of the site where adjacent to larger Chattam County lots, the the lots will be at least 15,000 square ft. Further lot sizes will be calculated exclusive of any adjacent stream buffers. Uh the North Carolina general statutes otherwise allow for adjacent stream buffers count towards lot size. A minimum of 40% of the lots in pod one and 45% of the lots in pod two will be adjacent to open space. There will be a 70 foot type A streetscape along the site frontage for west uh Feral Road West. This exceeds the 50 foot LDO requirement. There will be 50-foot streetscapes along the site frontage for Barbie Road and Mount Pisca Church Road, which also

exceeds the LDO requirements. A perimeter buffer will be provided in common open space where the LDO would otherwise allow it to be located on individual residential lots when abuing um other residential lots. A minimum of 75,000 square feet of open space is provided near the Barbie Road frontage across from the Wendy Hill neighborhood. This area may count towards the overall open space requirement for the site. There will also be a minimum of 63,500 square ft of community gathering area with at least 43,500 square feet in pod one. This is about 1 acre and 20,000 square feet in pod 2 is about half an acre. Um, and they exceed the LDO requirements for community gathering space. The applicant has also offered to construct streetside trails along the site's frontage on Barbie Road, Mount Pisa Road, and on the east side of Frell Road. They're also proposing to construct a portion of the greenway that's shown on the site um on Car's adopted plans in the northeastern portion of the site. Potential off-site transportation improvements include the installation of a traffic signal and the extension of a turn lane at NC50751 and Lutershop Road. This is about a mile and a quarter from the site. Further construction of turn lanes at Lutershop Road at West Barrel and construction of a turn lane at Lutterop Road at Barbie Road. These off-site transportation improvements are predicated on the developer's ability to acquire necessary off-site easements and rideway. So, the condition provides no guarantee these improvements will be made. Staff encourages the applicant to

complete additional survey and design work to confirm the feasibility of these off-site improvements. This would provide Carrie and nearby residents greater assurance that traffic impacts from the development will be effecti effectively mitigated. A preliminary analysis of this request uh starts with looking at the Chattam Kerry joint land use plan. This is one of K's special planning areas within the imagine Kerry community plan. For additional context, the Chadam Kerry joint land use plan was adopted in 2012 and it covers 18,000 acres and it's intended to guide future land use regulations um and public infrastructure as well as development. And its goal is to balance opportunities for suburban development with rural character. This is the adopted land use plan map with the Chattam Kerry joint land use plan and the site is located within an area designated for low density residential. This area recommends a maximum density of two units per acre. The proposed use and density for the zoning is currently at 1.5 units per acre which is consistent with the density recommendations of the jointly use plan. Continuing with our analysis, we also look at the case with the broader policies of the imagine Kerry community plan. When we look at live policies, we note that policy 3 recognizes that a variety of housing is needed to serve the diverse needs of K's residents. The proposed resoning would increase the housing stock of detached dwellings, which may somewhat address this policy. Regarding engage commitment to construction of a greenway segment and providing streetside trails along site frontages help to address policies related to car's greenway network. The shape chapter looking at

transitions. These can be addressed in a number of ways. The proposal seeks to use larger lot sizes along the perimeter to assist with transitions to larger lots in Chattam County. It also uses streetscapes and buffers in open space rather than on lots to provide vegetated transitions. Regarding move, the proposal would construct streetside trails along frontages, which is more than the LDO would otherwise require, and a number of off-site improvements are offered, but would require acquisition of easements and/or rideway and therefore cannot be assured. Regarding the enriched chapter, the larger streetscapes and perimeter buffers and open space along with the increased community gathering space may help to retain the tree canopy at the time um of development as well as address open space preservation. A neighborhood meeting was held in April of last year. There were 26 attendees with questions and concerns regarding transitions, buffers, transportation and tra traffic impacts, pedestrian and bicycle improvements, storm water and environmental impacts, and details of the proposed dwellings. Staff have received uh several emails and calls from citizens following the neighborhood meeting, most of which shared similar concerns to those voiced at the meeting. and the applicant has held a follow-up meeting uh with residents to continue discussions on the case. Public hearing was uh the public hearing was uh provided via notice uh to property owners within 800 ft of the subject site. This also included posting public hearing signs and legal ads per the town of Kerry and North Carolina general statute requirements. This concludes uh the staff presentation. Following the public hearing and uh comments, I'm available to answer questions. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. I.

So, now is time for the public hearing for 25 AO2 annexation and 25 Z04 reszoning. And first, I'll call on the clerk to read any written comments or call on any registered speakers.

And the applicant is also here.

Well, before we start the public hearing, I'd invite the applicant up for their comments. Good evening, Mayor and Council. I'm Mark Frederick with Parker Poe Adams and Bernstein. My office address is 301 Fateville Street in Raleigh. I'm joined tonight uh by Julie Spencer with David Weekekley Homes, Ed Tang with Wither Javanel, and Tyler Blang with Exalt Engineering. I'd like to first start off by thanking staff for all their hard work over the past year. Um their efforts and uh feedback has had a very positive impact on this project. Um the applicant David Weekly Homes is uh excited about the opportunity to establish this neighborhood in West Kerry. They are a private privately held company with a percentage owned by its team members and the Weekly family does remain involved with the overall operations. At a high level, this is a request to reszone approximately 150 acres to the R8 conditional district to allow the development of a traditional residential community with a maximum of 230 homes. These details alone are consistent with the town of Kerry and Chadam County joint land use plan, but it is the finer details of this case that really make it a good fit for this specific property and the surrounding area. Through our engagement with the surrounding community, this project has

evolved to reflect the characteristics that that the surrounding community truly values. From the multiple in-person neighborhood meetings to meetings with individual property owners and collaboration with the Wendy Hill Landown Owners Association board, the common [clears throat] thread and underlying topic was the rural character of the area and how to preserve that rural character. Our team had a good sense coming into this case that this would be a major theme for the project just based on other projects that have been recently approved or constructed in the area. Uh but our our conversations with the surrounding community really confirm this. So our focus over the past year has been to identify the defining characteristics of a neighborhood set in a rural area and how to incorporate those into this community. The result is the zoning commitments included with this proposal which are intended to both create a rural community from within but also from the outside looking in. Some of these conditions were incorporated into the case from the outset but we have included added several conditions as a result of our community engagement. So looking within the community we have limited residential density to a maximum of one and a half units per acre. This is squarely in the middle of the range of what is considered lowdensity residential development in the joint land use plan. This is also consistent with other recently approved and constructed projects with the same lowdensity residential designation in the surrounding area. We have also restricted the size of lots to a minimum of 10,000 square feet square feet with transition to larger 15,000t lots along the perimeter of the the community. In addition, we have included a requirement for at least 40% of all lots in the southern pod and 45% of all lots within the northern pod to be adjacent

to common open space. This ensures that open space is spread throughout the neighborhood and it will help create better viewsheds from an individual homeowner's perspective. And speaking of open space, we have committed to a minimum of 63,500 square ft of community gathering spaces. Community gathering space. This is the programmed amenity sites uh with uh that will be split up between the southern and northern pod to ensure both pods have their own amenity sites. So between the various environmental features, the aforementioned amenity areas and other open space such as the streetscape buffers, uh the perimeter buffers there. We are anticipating at least 40% of the total 153 acres to be some form of open space. This is a conservative estimate uh but but is well above the 20% required by code. The other half of the equation to this idea of preserving the rural character of the area is how this community appears from the outside looking in and how it is integrated into the existing landscape. All new development is inherently compared to what is it is directly adjacent to which can create a lot of friction for those living in the area. This is why appropriate transitions and preserving sight lines is so important especially in a rural area. To address this head-on, we have included wide streetscapes along the three public roads that this project borders on. This includes 50 foot wide buffers along Barbie Road and Mount Pisgar Road where uh no streetscape is required by code. We have also included a 70 foot wide streetscape along uh West Ferrell Road where a 50-ft streetscape would otherwise be required. Vegetation will be preserved within these streetscapes where it exists. If

not, they will be planted to the type A landscaping standard within the code, which is the town's most dense landscaping standard and intended to provide the greatest degree of screening feasible and minimize visual contact between uses. We have also committed to replacing the sidewalks along these streets with wider multi-use paths, which will create a more rural street edge. So between the wide streetscape buffers, the wider pedestrian facilities, and the larger perimeter lots, this community will be well insulated from the bordering public streets. This project is also adjacent to the Wendy Hill subdivision. We have had the opportunity to coordinate with the landowners association board on multiple occasions throughout this case. Wy Hill subdivision is located directly west of this project across Barbie Road with their entrance uh AC directly across Barbie Road. Um we have recently added a commitment to providing 75,000 square ft of open space directly across from the Wendy Hill entrance. This open space uh is in addition to the 50- foot wide type A landscaped streetscape buffer uh which we believe will preserve the sightelines for Windy Windy Hill residents. We have also included a 25 foot landscape buffer perimeter buffer around the new community to provide a transition to adjacent private property. This is a commitment to place the buffer in open space, not on residential lots, which will ensure the long-term maintenance by the HOA. Other zoning commitments include transportation improvements. These are based on the traffic study performed for this project as well as additional coordination with NC DOT. We have also included a concept plan which is not typical for conditional resonings in Kerry. Uh but we believe it was

beneficial for this case to provide some certainty as to where certain site elements will be located as well as help illustrate the written zoning conditions. Now, we've previously mentioned the joint land use plan, and Miss Dry did a great job of describing the applicable policies, but I wanted to re reiterate that this project is directly consistent with the lowdensity residential designation. This project also provides appropriate transitions along public roads that the plan recommends in the form of wide landscape buffers, open space areas, and larger perimeter lots. In summary, this project strikes the appropriate balance of mitigating concerns we heard from neighbors and delivering the type of development envisioned by the joint land use plan. We appreciate your time and look forward to your comments and our team is available to answer any questions. Thank you.

All right, take two. Now's the time for the public hearing for 25 AO2 annexation and 2504 reszoning Feral Road. And I'll call on the clerk to read any written comments. Call on any registered speakers.

We had um received two written comments. They've been just like public speaks out emailed to the council prior to the meeting provided to council um at your seat and attached to the online agenda for accessibility. Our first registered speaker is Terza Tanv Tanvana. Okay. Followed by James Stevens. Good morning.

Hi, good evening. Thank you so much for hearing my comments this evening. My name is Tissa Tavana and um I have had the privilege of living in Windy Hill for almost 30 years, shockingly. Um I live on 8 acres uh of beautiful land. I see the stars at night every night and I would like to keep that. Um this isn't about me though tonight. I actually came

to talk about why this is an important decision for you and everyone in this room that gets their water from Jordan Lake. Um, water is life basically. It's life of humans. It's life of your community. And um, you said earlier this evening that the quality of life in Kerry is not by accident. And I would like to confirm that the quality of water in Kerry is not by accident and add that it is by purpose-driven intention. Um, I heard what the gentleman said about meetings with Wendy Hill. I have some bones to pick there, but that's not where I'm going to go right now. What I want to tell you is why this may be the most important decision that even you guys make or whoever makes this decision will make in their career. Um, I know it sounds very dramatic, but this 700,000 people get their water from Jordan Lake, and I assume that includes you. Um, if you unleash, open the genie box to allow this sort of development this close to the lake. If you look at the pictures, literal fingers of Jordan Lake touch this land, abut this land. Okay? You can't go back and reinvent water. You can't go back and fix the issues. Every day, if you're looking at the news, you see information on microlastics and forever chemicals and flushed pharmaceuticals and depleted aquifers and algae blooms. It's endless. We don't have a right to clean water. It's not it's a privilege, right, to have clean water. We have to actively make decisions for ourselves and for our larger community based on the fact that we want to preserve clean water. So, this developer is asking to literally go to the gates of Jordan Lake and ask for they make it seem like it's 1.1 and a half acres, but literally if you do the math, it's 2 acre per home. And when you add community centers,

pools, you're adding sidewalks, you're adding driveways, you're adding garages, you're adding road structure, that's not open land. Okay? Somebody going in and clear cutting a buffer zone is damaging the land. It's damaging sediment that's going to run off into your groundwater, my groundwater, our joint water. So, I ask that you consider if you look at the map even up there in front of you, if you look at RHCU, look at how dense those lots are. They're all on top of each other. And the more they keep making the argument, well, this touches this and now this touches this. The arguments can be made for all the remaining part of that land that we overdevelop this space so that the developers can make their money, but your water is my water and my water is even closer because I have well water. So, I'm the one that's going to get the runoff. So, I'd like to share with you even on your website, sorry, nervous. um your website talks about the importance of protection of watershed and that's one word I haven't heard at all tonight no one has talked about the fact that this land is in the watershed okay so a watershed is where the water runs directly into the lake and everything you get all the sediment from all this clear cutting is going to go into that wershed into our water and on your own website it talks about how important it is to preserve the very land that we're talking about tonight to preserve those areas of land, those large chunks of land that are immediately above the water processing. So, UNCC has done a study about the increased flooding. Uh, this past summer, we had incredible flooding that required them to boil their water because this sort of thing is going to increase the amount of flooding and runoff. There's no uh and then you have all the um nitrogen and phosphorus, all the things fertilizers, you know, that people are going to use to grow their grass. So, in summary,

when you go home tonight and you open your tap and you drink your water, you have your tea, you take your shower, you brush your teeth, I want you to think about, just think for a moment how this could actually impact you and impact your water. And if this development does not make you feel comfortable, that there's not a risk to the future safety of your water for your children, your grandchildren, those three lovely kids that were up here talking, you know, those are the people that are going to have to rely on you making a good decision about how this development could impact the water. On a no final note, I have a lot of wetlands on my land. They're undisturbed. If you let nature do its work, it will do it for you for free. End of story. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

I appreciate you being here. I appreciate your enthusiasm. I ask that you not applaud. Thank you.

Our next speaker

is James Stevenson followed by um Tamara Man.

Mr. Mr. Mayor and Town Council, thanks for giving us the opportunity. Uh, our president of the Wendy Hill Landowners Association couldn't make it. I dropped off a copy of his talking points. His back went out today, so he was not able to make it to to speak. So, I'm going to try to cover most of what we wanted to talk about. Uh, development's tough, a lot of issues. We just heard about some of them. The Wendy Hill landowners board met with Weekly Homes to talk about two issues that concerned us. One was the R8 zoning, which we thought was more comparable to be R12 to some of the other developments, and the other was light pollution. You heard Mark talk about the compromise that was reached about increasing the buffering right across from the Wendy Hill entrance with the 75,000 square ft. We put that proposal to the um membership at our annual meeting last September. Would we agree that if we got the additional buffering to decrease the impact on the

sightelines from Wendy Hill, would we drop our opposition to R12? and the membership voted that that was in fact what they wanted to do. Doesn't mean everybody agrees with that, but that is what the membership voted. The second issue that was really important to us was the light pollution. When we spoke with Weekly Homes, they informed us what we knew that the lighting is a carry standard. Several years ago, when we talked with members of the planning board about lighting, the concern about making any modifications to lighting was that creating exceptions creates a patchwork and becomes unmanageable for the planning board with new developments. The proposal that we've passed around is a way to mitigate that patchwork concern and it leverages the language of the joint use plan about you you've just heard and there are four points to make. First of all, section 3.5 of the joint use plan talks about special considerations for transition zones along the rural buffer and that's a formal term. That rural buffer is that black and yellow line and that is Barbie road. So the rural buffer is right in between the very low density and the low density. Section 3.5 talks about transitions. Section 3.6 says that planning boards may exercise discretion and judgment when considering development between different density zones along the rural buffer. It then refers to section six which talks about how those guidelines can be implemented and to quote amendments to subdivision standards quote to implement the recommendations of the joint plan specifically the recommendations at the area designated as a VLDR west of the rural buffer boundary. So amendments can be made to meet the intent of the joy joint use plan which is agreed to by the town of Kerry and Chattam County. So our argument is and the rationale we'd like to put to you is that modifying lighting standards based on the direction of the joint use plan and only along those areas that are on

the rural buffer which is Barbie road would be a very unique exception to reduce the light pollution. It would have no impact at all on other areas of Kerry development thereby obviating any concern that modifying the lighting standards to reduce the light pollution which is a great concern to the membership uh would be difficult to manage for for uh the Kerry planning board. So, in summary, what we're asking the council to do is support the proposal to modify those lighting standards to have lower height and lower intensity light along Barbie Road, which is the rural buffer, in order to decrease the light pollution within the adjacent very low density areas, in a way that is unique and manageable for future developments. This proposal was also put to the Wendy Hill uh membership at our September meeting and they approved this approach and the proposal. So, we're asking for your support to talk with the planning board to enable a meeting to discuss those modifications. David Weekly Homes has agreed to broker that meeting even though this isn't their decision about what the lighting should be, but to meet with the planning board and the residents to discuss the lighting. Thank you very much and we really do implore you for your support. Thank you.

Our next register speaker is um Tamara Manard and Daniel followed by Daniel Sanj.

[clears throat] [cough]

Hello. Um, my name is Tammy Manhard. [clears throat] Um, I want to thank you

for having me here to and giving me the opportunity to speak regarding the resoning of the proposed highdensity development of approximately 253 acres along West Farrell and Barbie Road. My husband and I live across the street from the proposed development of the property bordering Barbie Road on approximately 10 acres where we raised our children and we resided there for nearly 10 years. As you know, the proposed development lies along the eastern edge of Chattam County in an area historically zoned as our one low density area governed by the Kerry Chattam County joint land use plan of 2012. It is critical that the [clears throat] development of land within this area be supported by responsible planning that protects existing communities and homeowners, public health and long-term land use commitments. The joint use plan was adopted to manage growth at the urban rural boundary and to protect established lowdensity communities that rely on private ground private groundwater wells. Reszoning this property to a much higher density R8 as currently proposed by the developer is not an isolated change. It establishes a precedent for additional highdensity development along the surrounding R1 area fundamentally altering the area and intent of the joint the joint use plan which was anticipated two houses per acre. This our aid is four to five houses per acre. The highdensity zoning encourages development intensity that the area was never designated or intended to support. Please know that homes located within the R1 area rely almost entirely on private wells for their drinking water. Higher density development increases imperous surfaces, storm water runoff, chemical and pesticide use, and infrastructure strain, each of which elevates the risk of groundwater

contamination. Unlike municipal water users, private well owners have limited protection and few remedies if wellwater contamination was to occur. During a meeting hosted by the developer on July 7th of 2025 at Mount Pisca Church Road, a request was made of the developer to to conduct an environmental study to understand the potential environmental impact and risks of groundwater contamination from the proposed development. Has the developer conducted this environmental study? What asurances or protections do we have to ensure that our groundwater remains unaffected and safe to drink? If groundwater contamination were to impact our homes, residents could face a public health crisis beyond their control, potentially forcing them to connect to K's municipal water system. This raises serious concerns regarding utilitydriven annexation where homeowners are pressured into annexation simply to obtain safe drinking water after harm caused by nearby development. With respect to annexation, we respectfully request clear written assurances of the town of Kerry and the developer that any municipal water connection required due to groundwater contamination will not trigger voluntary or involuntary annexation. No util utility agreement, service extension or mitigation measure will include annexation consent clauses either explicit or implied. Responsibility for the groundwater remediation and alternative water supply will rest with the developer responsible for the contamination, not with the impacted homeowners. These protections are reasonable and necessary to ensure development proceeds without shifting risk, cost, coercion onto neighboring residents and ensuring that growth aligns with adopted plans, respects existing communities, and protects vital natural resources.

We urge the council to carefully consider the long-term implications of the resoning, not only for this site, but for the broader eastern Chattam County boundary. An environmental study must be conducted before approving any proposed development and final plan should require enforcable protections to homeowners before approving a change of this of this magnitude. Thank you.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Daniel Sanchez, followed by Marty Ly. Good evening, Mayor and Town Council. I'll try really hard not to just repeat everything that's been said, although water is pretty much everything. Um, but a couple things just to point out before I bring some of those and some pieces of those to your attention that maybe haven't been brought up just yet. Um, one is is very concerning. Um, very nice presentation by uh one of the town of Kerry uh planning people. Um, it sounds like a sales pitch. Um, if I was really trying to get somebody to uh to to buy into something, I' i'd make a pitch just like that uh with all the screens and slides and everything with that too. Uh but no negatives whatsoever. Just all the positives for what seems to be really just for the builder, but really not for any of the residents or anybody else. Um and this is a R1 location. This is built by the 2012 2012 agreement with Chadam and Carrie. Uh it is not an R8 and nothing about the proposed is in in alignment with any of the current standards that are in that community. Yeah, I understand if you don't live out there um you it's easy to to say, "Well, those people out in rural, they've had

they've had their time out there long enough and they deserve to have more people living out there because the rest of us are getting crowded out here, too." Well, we've been out there for a while and we deserve to have exactly the environment that we agreed to move into and buy into, which is a a low density community. you can follow their mathematical juggling of how they they propose it being, you know, one house per one and a half acres. It's completely untrue. Um they're they're using mathematics that Lenar tried to as well on uh between uh the the the corner of Hope Chapel and Mount Pisgo. Lar Lonar tried the same uh math juggling to build uh lower density a little bit lower density houses and maybe a little bit larger larger footprint. is still a a postage stamp compared to what R8 is supposed to be. But then it was super high density in the middle and that did not pass. And one of the main reasons why is because it could not get past environmental and that was 3/4 of a mile further away from Jordan Lake than this is. This is literally on the edge of Jordan Lake. And I personally live right downstream from this. So this proposal puts watershed literally it's about 500 yards away from my well and I will get the repercussions of from this and this will damage this will damage my property over time. It's too close to Jordan Lake and this is why this was all made to be R8 in the first exc R1 in the first place and not R8 which they're trying to change it to. There was nothing part of the original development that included bringing things like this into the plan. They talk about Dustin, Dest, uh they talk about Wendy Hill, uh like those are developments. They're not. Those are 3 to 6 to 10 acre home sites that have a lot of uh permeable services that can absorb the water. And we also they don't have giant areas of grass that require fertilizer. and they don't have all the other chemicals that are going to be put into the ground near all those as well.

So when you add all that, that's the problem. And that ends up in Jordan Lake. And just to just to cover some of the things maybe that they didn't talking about the water, Jordan Lake currently has problems with blue green algae in the water. It's not this is not something that's going to happen. It's happening now. We already have problems in Jordan. And as has been pointed out, this is all your water as it is with ours. We drink off the water table, but you drink directly out of the lake. And that's going to have an impact. And as it said before, it really isn't overdramatic to say how critical this decision is right now to put something that didn't belong next to what the Army Corps of Engineers built as our water supply. It really is a mistake. Branch Homes is building a little house on a couple acre lot right next to where this is being proposed. They are being inundated with people asking, "Are you building more houses out here?" There is demand to live out there. There is demand for two and three acre lots. The people who are selling this property, I don't take anything away from them that they want to cash out on the property, but they can develop inside the R1 code that currently exists and make their money back. It might take a little longer. It might be a little more work. That's not our fault. That's not your fault. And that's not the people who are trying to develop the house. They can make money on the property. We're not trying to stop them from doing that. but develop inside the code in which it currently exists which is R1 build lots that are much bigger then that is exactly inside of what we expect to see out in our rural area. You don't have to build 50oot buffers if what you're building is going to be consistent with our rural charm. They're fighting really hard to make it sound like this is all going to look like it fits in really good.

I have to interrupt you. I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. Our last treasure speaker is Mari Lo.

Good evening, Mayor, Town Council. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. Unfortunately, two people spoke on some things that I had planned. So, I'm going to try to jump around a little bit to not be repetitive. But, I'm going to talk about a little bit about history and real data, real actions taken by you and the board. Uh, because I don't know the tenure of everyone here, nor do I know the tenure of the board, but this is not the first time there's been development on Mount Pisca proposed uh zoning by the town of Kerry and the board. Uh, it happened in 2014. It happened in 2020, less than a mile from where we are today on this proposal. History and reality is that the board planning board for Kerry voted no on both. They voted no on both because of the proximity of the land to the watershed which has been discussed as well as the topography of the land shows all the slope towards the wershed. The proposed development that's been mentioned here is going to be worse, much worse. And here's why. It'll be worse than the one that was voted no already twice. It is because first of all, it is directly located on a feeder creek. It is on the wershed. The previous one, no, was because it sloped toward the wershed and it was going to be flowing a ways towards it. This is directly on it. It'll be worse. Second is we get a typographic map of the land. You're going to see the buildable lots slope more severe than the ones voted no in 2014. Third is is going to be that this proposal is a quarter of a mile to a half a mile closer than the one you've already voted no for. The board vote already voted no. This one's even a half mile closer than that one. And then fourth is the density of 4.5 units per buildable acre is much higher than what was voted no before. So my request I have one request for this topic and that is please have the

board employ a civil engineer, an environmental engineer, a geological engineer to get the typographic maps, look at the flow of the water because this is going to affect you as well as it affect us and probably bigger problems. But look at the flow and see what's going to happen and make an informed decision before this gets approved. That's one request. Okay? Not the developer. The developer if they hire an engineer will be biased towards the engineer. So I'd rather the city that is unbiased trying to do the right thing employ civil engineer or an environmental engineer. Okay. Request one. Request two. It looks to me that the Kerry town of uh town of K's land development ordinance provides solutions for this. If you look at it, when I looked at it, I'm not an expert on it, but the problem statement is when you take a uh zone that is 4.5 units per builderable acre and you put it in an incompatible zone that's R1, that's really one unit per two to 10 acres, that's just incompatible. And when I read it, I look at section 4.2.2, they do provide transitional residential districts. And although the details of that are sparse in the land development ordinance, it is clear you have a you have a solution where if you have an a a zone with a set of attributes here and a zone with a completely different set of attributes here that are incompatible, you have the ability to provide transition zones, transition districts that allows a smooth flow of development. So we would request that not only this proposal but as you develop in this area and we'd expect you to develop in this area that you do so thoughtfully and you plan low development to medium development to highdensity development to commercial multif family dwelling development that it makes sense. It's well thought out. This is just an R8 zone, which is 4.5 units per buildable acre pllopped right in the middle of a community that's mostly estate homes with 2 to 12

acres. It's not even close to being compatible. So, the second request is, can we leverage the land development ordinance, the transition zones to help us at all as we develop in this area?

Thank you for your time.

Thank you. No additional registered speakers.

If you are here and would like to speak at this public hearing, now's your opportunity. Anyone else for this public hearing?

Thank you for the opportunity. I wasn't sure there would be one if I didn't register ahead of time. So, I'm Cheryl Strad. I live at um 621 Mount Pisca Church Road right across from Danny Sanchez. Um I also will be impacted on wellwater. But there's something that hasn't been mentioned here tonight. Where are all these kids going to go to school? Um one of the previous developments that got voted down, part of it was because no real plan was in place for where all the kids were going to go to school. I've been in a situation when my kids were growing up where there was a lot of development and the kids are the ones that suffer because they get crowded into classrooms. It's just not an optimal learning situation. So, this is something that hasn't been mentioned. Water is ultimately incredibly important. I beg you to do an environmental study. I don't see how this can happen without an environmental study. But somebody's got to also be thinking about where all these kids are going to go to school. So, thank you very much for considering that.

Thank you. Anyone else? Could you move to your left, please? Thank you.

Sorry, I'm short. Hi, I'm Nicole Kazaya. I'm the homeowner that lives directly across from the Mount Pisga piece of property. I'm not a development. I own

almost 6 acres directly across from it. I've been pushed by the developer from various people to try to sell part of the road frontage of our property for the water which they didn't plan for. I don't want to sell my property. I bought my property to retire on and not have all this. So I they called the other day again after being harassed before when I was told, "Oh, you don't have to do that. the town of Kerry is not annexing your side. Well, apparently that didn't matter because they're they're back again. And I just I asked, well, don't put road um entrances and exits on Mount Pisga. But I will say there's a lot of rare birds and animals that are around there, too. So in addition to the water supply which Indian Creek literally is at the bottom of the hill of where they would develop that directly runs in like they were talking about the feeder water into Jordan Lake. So, it is really and I've talked to the Army Corps of Engineers a couple times um both in DC and Wilmington and they basically say they've gotten no submission about it, but that what happens is it gets reszoned and then they get the ability to minimize the damage to our water. So I would just ask that as everyone that has spoken that you do take the time to hire the environmentalist, the civil engineer, any and everyone that you can possibly to make sure what damage is going to be because everyone has wells around us. But to their point, I didn't even think about it like that. All the town of Carerry water is coming out of Jordan Lake. So it is super close. Anyway, sorry my 86-year-old mom's been in the hospital all week and I didn't come prepared, but yeah, please take the time to think about this.

Thank you, each and every one of you. I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Good evening. Um, I'm Lisa Sanchez and I just um felt it was important that um I followed up with just a few um I try not to be more

Pardon me.

Oh, I'm trying not to be overly emotional because there is a lot of data here. Um and there's a lot of high concern as a mom and a homeowner. We lived in Kerry for 15 years. We left California and brought our family here because we wanted a different way of life. Um, we chose to be proactive and make sacrifices. We left family. We walked away from a business so that we could embrace something that we felt was important to all of us, which was rural living. And we left Kerry. It was hard to do to get away from the development that's already happening. And progress is good. I do understand that. But when you approach people that are being pushed farther and farther with no place else to go, that have sunk everything. I have a home with a child living there and a grandchild on the way. I chose generational living property for this reason. And I just want assurance that we're going to be protected. I have a different perspective now because I have a grandson coming in two weeks that is going to play in my pond and drink from my well. and I want to know he's protected. I'm just imploring that the environmental studies that were done before and voted against be redone. And please just use your wisdom and discernment and protect the people that live out there cuz we want to be part of progress, but we also want to know that we're protected and our rights are preserved. So, thank you.

Thank you. Anyone else to speak at the public hearing? anyone at all. So, I'm going to close the public hearing and I want to thank all of the speakers and all those in attendance

that are interested in this topic for coming out. Your feedback really does matter. Um, I I want to just make sure that I address some of the things that I heard. Uh, we talked about density in the past and the future. I'm going to get to that in a m a minute. Uh, we also heard zonings. We heard county zonings and we heard city zonings. Just so everybody's on the same page, tell everybody what an R1 is. R A8, somebody said exactly right, 4.4 units an acre. Tell everybody what a Chattam County R1 is.

Yeah. So, um, Chattam County R1 is just it's a residential zoning district. The one stands for one acre. So, generally one acre lots. Um and then uh the carry R8 um stands for residential and 8,000 foot minimum lot size.

Yep.

Thank you. Um some of the other things I heard I want to make sure everybody understand that Carrie doesn't propose. Carrie evaluates proposals. So this is the landowner proposing it, not Carrie. Um make sure you know that. And then schools are definitely an issue especially on this side of the lake of uh Chattam County and it's the county's responsibility. However, we advocate for schools both in Wake and Chattam County with no avail. I think we tried to deal one time with Wake County to take Chattam County kids and they're not having it. Um so that is definitely a problem and definitely something to consider. Um, also want to say that the plans we try to evaluate, what we're evaluating from, and what the staff was presenting is how this matches or does not match the Kerry community plan. And that was what the presentation was about. It's our job after it goes through the process to decide if it does match or does not match Kerry Community Plan. Now, somebody mentioned when this

joint plan was created, am I the only one left?

Me.

You were there too. Okay. So, we spent weeks or months,

years.

Years.

2000 I think it started in 2009. Yes.

It was years.

It was years. And And uh

I wasn't there for 2009.

Okay. But but I remember it was a long long time. And I remember having dinner with Chattam County Commissioners. By the way, we paid for our own dinners if anybody's keeping track. Um, and the concern and the how upset the Chattam County Commissioners have been were at the time and they're all gone. It seems like they flipped. I don't know Chattam County Commissioners, but I think they're more interested in development than they were back then. I know they are to some degree. I say that because we have a lot of new people here and I might not be here in two years and you know Lori and I might be gone two years. Who knows? And then you have a council has no experience and no history with what goes on there. And the the potential for more density there I think increases every time there's a proposal. Keep that in mind. Not saying I don't agree with you. As a matter of fact, my message to the developer based on what we heard back then, this was not the what we were thinking back then. Not not even close. Uh it was like someone said as you go toward the lake, you get less less dense. And that was what we had agreed to back then. And I thought it was very clear. And to me, I have a lot of problems with what's proposed. But on the other hand, please work this through. We could all vote it down in the end, but just work this through and see if there's anything that can come out positive to this because I fear future proposals will be even more

dense and and I might not be here. Um, and who knows who will be here and what their mindset is because I've seen Chattam County change. Um, having said that, I want to tell you the process. So we had you had a neighborhood meeting last April. This is a public hearing and in a month or two or three it will go to an advisory board of appointed citizens called the planning and zoning board and their task is to give their recommendation of does this match the Kerry community plan and then two to three months after that it will come back to us and we take all the input we've had from you all the input we've had from staff and the advisory boards and then we make our decision there. So that's where we are in the process. We have plenty of time. Uh we have meetings twice a month. You're welcome to come to any meeting and speak at public speaks out. Won't have a public hearing, but you're welcome to come at public speaks out. Katie Dry will be your liaison and we'll have the latest and greatest information. If the developer changes anything or adds anything, she would be the person to contact. And if you don't remember that, look online, find me, email me, and I'll do my best to give you the information I have. So, that's what I have and I hope I haven't talked too long, but I'd like to turn it over to my colleagues.

Well, I thought I'd take a moment since we have a lot of council members who may not be aware of what the Chattam County joint plan is, just to give you a little bit of history because I did come in on the last year of that. had the opportunity. Um, when we talk about VLDDR, very low density residential for the Chattam County joint plan, that meant one to five acre lot that was west of the rural buffer boundary. So, I'm I see everybody in the audience shaking their heads. Yes, she got that right. Um, and also sharing it with you all here. Um, and that was not on gross, that was the lot size. So if you had a stream buffer that wasn't included in that 1 to five acres. So you might have

six or 10 acres, but the actual buildable land was at least one to five acres. That was the very low density um residential and that was and and Katie will correct me if I get anything wrong. Um and that was the rural buffer uh boundary. And the idea was that if there was a new development or a new home that was going to be built, it was going to match that VLDR. Then on the east side of that was what we called LDR, but it's a little bit different than what Carrie calls LDR, which was supposed to be an average of one dwelling per gross acre. That's how it is in the Chattam County plan. And that was a lot of discussion back and forth with Chattam County um commissioners and Kerry council members. Actually, we wanted it from what I remember, as I recall, even um to be bigger lots, but Chattam County felt like that's this was the area where there was going to be higher density. Um so, that's a little bit about it was one to two dwellings per gross acre. Now, I'll just give my thoughts, but I I do have a bunch of questions for me. um R8 with 4.5 doesn't match the LDR goals of what the Chattam County plan is. Um and the idea of clustering, which we we talk about a lot at this table, which is where, hey, let's protect the stream buffers. Let's um and so what we're really going to do is we're going to put all the houses really close together in this one area in order to protect the stream buffers. that doesn't meet the idea of the rural quality, the rural look and feel that this Cadam County Chadam Kerry joint plan started with. I mean, that's that's how I personally feel about it, having been in the room. So, for me, I I

get that they're calculating that it's 1.5 units per acre, but that includes the stream buffers and so does gross acreage, but R8 is about is more than that. and we're talking about clustering. So, it there seems to be an, you know, antithetical view of this where you're not really looking at them the same way. Um, but I do have a bunch of questions, but I thought I would have the opportunity to explain that to some of the new council members here that might not have had the chance to look through the whatever 40 pages of the Chattam County. Did I get anything wrong?

Yeah. No, that's roughly correct. I did. Okay. Okay. All right. Um, so Council Member Bush, could you, and I know I'm asking you now to search your memory, why these designations in these areas, you know, why was that boundary identified? Why was this eastern portion identified as low density and the other was very low density? Was there a rationale there? And we can even see

there's a bit of a patchwork because there's also very low density a little bit further east.

That's a perfect perfect question. That's my first question too. The boundary doesn't seem

um being in the room the way this the reason this took so many years because it was a community invested and participation activity. So um land owners from various places says oh I want VLDR or I want LDR you know they might be saying you know what I think I'm going to sell my land I don't want to be in this area. Um, also the rural buffer boundary was also determined because that was where the town of Kerry was going to provide utilities, but we were not going to provide utilities on the rural side. Am I still doing okay? Yes. Okay.

It was 20 a long time ago, 15 years ago. So, um, that was the, um, change. I will also say just to be fair, there have

been land owners that that you've heard of that have come in here and change who changed their mind, right? They were going to be, hey, I'm never gonna move. I've got, you know, a 100 acres. I'm never going to move. I want it to always be VLDDR. And they have come here and said, I know that I said I would wanted it to be in the VLDR, but I really want to put a development here for my family, for my kids, right? This is their this is my legacy. and they've come in for requests to um reszone and we have we've seen that a a lot. Right. Would you

as well? Yeah.

So, all right. Um can I ask a couple please? Um just a few

I was just going to say should we let Ser ask her question?

Oh, sorry. Yes.

It's her district.

Sorry, you're fine. and the history lesson

the history definitely helped and I want to thank all the residents for coming out uh to speak. I personally did not have this history and plus the information about the water um issues that you foresee with this proposed uh development. Um, I did review this with um um our director of uh assistant town manager um and director of uh planning and zoning and we reviewed everything in lot more detail than I anticipated at that point. But um I do agree with everyone here. R8 is a lot. It'll it feels like we'll take a small land and we have to support and save the streams and we're going to stack those homes. The um sideyard setback is I believe 5T.

Yes. Uh 5T for the sideyard setback with a minimum of 20 ft combined. So when you add up the sideyards on either side, they have to at least equal 20 feet.

But for Rated, it's five feet.

Yes. Yes. five feet on one side as long as so if it goes down to five feet on one side the other side must be 15 feet um so 20 feet between the two but yes 5t on one side

so the homes potentially will be stacked like or at least that's the optics of the if you if you drive like you will find homes pretty much side by side um yeah I think that for that particular area that in my view is a lot. Our rate um would not be I I don't think it it I agree with our rate. Um then there is about the transportation improvements that were mentioned and these are all potential transportation improvements. there was a traffic study that was done and there were some improvements that were identified um like a traffic signal right of way and things like those and you know I don't think they should be potential if we do move forward with the this project I would like to see that these you know um these are uh required um or at least a commitment is given Um I do like that you know the sorry I forgot my notes at home today and I took the notes again while I was everybody was presenting and um it's all over the place right now so I'll try my best. Um so I don't environmental study did we um is that a requirement like I know that many residents mentioned that tonight like what is um what is the criteria for environmental that do do we do that for every project or does this fall into a special zone that's why we we would um you know request one and if there was one can you please share share some

information with us.

Um, so environmental studies or reports are not necessarily a requirement of a resoning. Um, but we any any reasonzoning that were to move through and if it were to move to development plan would have to meet um the town of Kerry's environmental standards which would include watershed protection. Um, this this would be within the watershed protection overlay district for Jordan Lake. Um, we would also, you know, require tree surveys to evaluate the trees on the site. And so there would certainly be a lot of evaluation when it comes to environmental features on the site. We would also look at stream buffers to make an official stream buffer determination. So all of those aspects would be required.

So have we done environmental study or we have not?

At this point in time there is not.

So at what point do we go back and do the environmental study? So the the elements that I just described would be part of the land development ordinance requirements with the development plan review. Um there would not be a requirement for an environmental study um with a reasonzoning

side plane.

Oh, okay. Got it. Um, but if we do need that information to in order to make a decision or at least understand the density, how it's going to impact some of the environment around that. Um, is that possible?

Well, you're asking for staff to spend time and money before we approve the result is what you're asking. Did I misunderstand?

I'm not asking. I'm I'm asking a question.

I know, but that would be the answer. They would have to do that before it's approved. essentially or you know if the development team wanted to you know look at if there's additional things that they could study as part of the zoning and voluntarily offer that as a zoning condition that could be something that they could consider as well.

The development team

the development team

that development team or that development team

that that development Okay.

So it's not ours

if they would like to.

Yeah. So we're talking volunteer

there there like the applicants volunteer stop. [laughter]

Okay.

So I think but you know in order to kind of get a little bit understanding might be a good thing to have to strengthen their case. Um yes, nobody spoke about schools and I agree with the mayor may and mayor prom here but then I do feel that you know the kind of density that we're discussing schools will be highly impacted and it's families quality of life at the end of the day you know when we talk about quality of life um you know children should be happy in school uh we moved to Kerry about 10 years ago we are part of the problem by the way um we brought We came here for go a good quality of life um to send our children or send our daughter to uh a good school and you know we I understand where you're coming from. So even though the town council does not have direct relation and direct um not relation is not the right word but maybe you know we don't have too much authority over what uh the county decides in terms of school but definitely you know uh I understand your concern about like where will these children go to school and um I think that's all from my side. I don't have any questions, but I don't think this um uh I'm not very excited about this project right now.

Thank you.

I I have a couple of questions that go ahead.

Um so the first one is is there a connection that is will need to be made on on the southern side of the lower pod. I don't know which one's one or two. um because of our uh connectivity ordinances.

Yes, very likely. And um the the concept

plan actually does show potential connection um connections. It's and I apologize, it's really difficult to see with the concept plan that you're looking at here, but there is um uh just an arrow shown um along the southern border of pod one that shows potential street access. So again, apologize for the graphic, but yes.

Okay. And is it west Feral Road? Is it Feral Road West? Is there an East Feral Road?

Is Do they connect? I was trying to look it up on the map. Which one is it? Does anybody know? I'm just curious because we've had so many.

Thank you.

Is it east of it?

Is it east of it? because Green Level West is actually east of Green Level. So, I'm just saying it is actually east. Okay. Thank you. And we normally don't. Yeah. But we appreciate the experience in the room. Okay. Um, also the town owns a property to the east of Pod Two. Is there a property in between the Ernest Jones property and this property? There is I'll pull up the map to demonstrate.

Yeah. So you can see uh the property is shown in the yellow highlighted area and the the property that the town of Kerry owns, the Bryson Nature Preserve is shown um highlighted in green. So you can see there is a kind of a a narrow lot that's separating the two in between.

And so there will be and I'm going to make you bring the concept plan up. Yes. the the greenway proposed is that greenway goal to get to the Ernst Ernest Jones property. Is that what that goal is?

Yes, eventually it would.

Okay. I was trying to figure out where they where they were. Um and then the other question is, is the open space

numbers that are defined where um really about the stream buffers? Is is that where we're using the open space numbers?

Yeah. So, I'm going to pull back up the concept plan. And the open space could um so the open space could include the stream buffers. It could also include the perimeter buffers, the streetscape. Um they do have some dedicated open space that's proposed along the north western corner of Barbie Road. You can see there's a little

green triangular pod there. So, all of that could count towards open space requirements.

Okay. I I'm not a personally I I feel like I'm channeling Jennifer Robinson here. I'm not a personally a big fan of using buffers that you can't build in as the reason for doing open space. I It is open space, but it doesn't seem to actually align

meaningful

meaningful. I do see that there looks like a potential proposed um uh BMP on the lower part of pod two. If if this were to move forward, I would hope that the applicant would make it more than just a pond, make it an amenity, not just put a fence around it. But those are the kinds of things that when we dive into it are really meaningful and and I'm really glad that the um citizen resident came up and you spoke about the schools because one of the things we happen to know from our engagements with Chattam County commissioners is there is no plan whatsoever to put a public school on this side of Jordan Lake in Chattam County at all. So, this would absolutely relegate all of the families that would potentially move here to either drive 45 minutes to a school on the other side of Jordan Lake public

school or to find some sort of private or home school, some other option,

charter maybe,

um, charter. But um it is something that we have to be careful with how we consider. But it is also the reason why there's so many retirement communities um in Chattam County because they don't require generally um public schools. So it's just something to consider as well.

If I could my um I just wanted to go back to the open space. Um, I did want to also clarify that in addition to the open space, they have committed to the 63,000 square feet of community gathering space. So, that would be that would actually have some criteria associated with it where it would be centrally located. Um, it would have to have some uh level of amenity as well. So, I just wanted to make sure I I pointed that out to you.

And where would that be? Do you know? um they've proposed uh one community gathering space within pod one and then another community gathering space within pod two. So the loca the location's not yet set but in general our ordinance does require that it's generally centrally located. So during development plan, we would be looking um for um accessibility from the the people that would live there in the lots

as long as it's not a corner like what may prom like you know or maybe an unused lot but they cannot do anything you know it has to be meaningful space. May

yeah.

Um so Lori and the mayor and I we're not district representatives. for everybody representatives, right? And I can tell you every time I see any of the reasonzonings, which typically have one of the the the roads as the title, like that, you know, it's always um kind of easily identifiable as that near Jordan Lake or near um or Far West Kerry based off of the name of the road that the resoning is named after. And as soon as I saw the the name, I went, "Oh, geez,

how close is this to Jordan Lake?" So, I'm just going to be completely transparent here. Um, I'm I now understand I've always wondered why the border the the boundary for the the joint land use plan didn't mirror the shore of the lake. It's to me the wisest way to protect the watershed and to create that very rural lowest of low density preserved area would be to take the topography and the flow of water and the proximity to to of the lake as the primary if not only um thing considered in creating that boundary. And so when I see projects that, if I'm reading this map correctly, a finger of the lake literally will stick into um pod two, I it gives me heartburn and it gives me um it makes me start asking a whole lot of questions a lot of times, particularly about topography and which way do things flow and all that. But here, I don't think I really need to with it with this proximity. I think it's it's a fair assumption that at least pod two um that water that runoff anything going on there is going into the lake. U so I'm just going to share my perspective there. Um when it comes to any kind of fairly dense proposals we get for this area. It's it's just really hard to get enthusiastic about them because of that proximity to to Jordan Lake. And that's not unique to this proposal. Um I don't think if this was a few miles east, I don't think I'd have the reservations that I have because of the location here. And I don't again I think last time we brought we discussed a project that included um reviewing the Chattam Kerry joint land use plan. I said, "Can

we amend that? Can we amend that?" And I'm going to say it again. Can we amend that?

Um they're

I know. I'm I'm I'm like, "Oh, it'll be easy. Let's just have some convers. I'm not saying that and I understand everybody's [clears throat] cringing right now, but can we amend that is is this is going to happen I think more and more frequently. U I also want to share that I do I share Mr. Steven's concern about light pollution. Um, another thing that I I think folks are are I I was told by one individual it was I had a a solution looking for a problem and I don't think that that is necessarily the case when it comes to light pollution, but I do believe that that is a significant factor out here in this most rural area um of Kerry and and I do think that's a a reasonable thing. I know staff has looked into our light ordinances and and such before me before and I appreciate that, but I do believe that's also something it's really appropriate to consider for any kind of development out here where there's a lot more particularly wildlife um but also an existing um darker sky and lower light lower light levels that exist today. Um, so I I just want to share again that I I do this is not um, hey, this is a terrible project. It's it's really ex my concerns are exceptionally situational about this one. Uh, but I wanted to ask I think Lisa, you're probably the best person to address this. Can you be very specific about what the limitations are for us when it comes to considering schools um, when we're when we're making these decisions? My understanding is there's limitations to how much we can consider that. Do I have that correct?

You can consider schools, roads, environmental, any kind of reasons you think would be proper to support or deny a resoning.

Okay.

Um there's some certain limitations about um roads and schools, but that's not an issue here tonight. There's no school in the area. So I think if you

have concerns about schools, that could be a valid reason.

Thank you. I app. So is the if there was an existing school there, would the answer be different?

Yes, there is specific state law about denying a reasonzoning for a proposed school itself based on traffic concerns. As you know, the legislature is trying to encourage building of schools and um requiring that any road improvements to schools be paid for by cities or by DOT. So, there's some legislation around reszoning of proposed school sites, but not residential zonings that don't contain a school site.

I'm glad I asked that because I had that exactly wrong. Okay. And that's that's um really I think all of my questions or concerns about that.

Other questions?

Can I ask a question? because uh this week um uh council member uh Richard and I just had the new council member uh orientation about the storm water and we learned that storm water is so important especially it cost a lot and um town manager Russ know that you know was thinking if this kind of property development and it's in a rural area how much the town needs to invest in that to support still a high quality of life

and also So still the police, fire departments could cover that area. And also the schools is so important because I know because I send kids to school every day. I want a school to close to my house. I couldn't drive for 30 minutes to a school every day.

Yeah, the police and fire coverage is an interesting question. Yeah, consider that.

I don't know if they meet our standards today at that location. Would they, Russ? We have a fivem minute standard without building another firehouse. I know we got one in the works.

The chiefs are both here. I believe they especially Chief Cooper and staff look at that with annexation

and then the storm water they have to build to 100 years storm event

but 100year storm event seem to be happening a lot. Other thoughts, questions?

Our related to the light pollution concerns, our ordinance is applicable to all of Kerry. Is that correct?

The way the way it's currently written.

Okay. And I don't believe we should do things the way we've always done them just for the sake of doing them that way. But I do believe it is important for us to have that history and to just be aware of why things were done the way they were. And I I think I could use some more education in general about environmental impacts, particularly related to this area. I'm a District B representative. I don't spend most of my time thinking about District D. So, I think in general that would be would be helpful. It also occurred to me that I don't know our Chattam County Commissioners.

I don't think I do either anymore.

I I've met they've shift and they've shifted.

I may have met one, but in general, and I wonder if it would be good for us to

Yes.

sit down and have a meeting.

Great idea.

And we're not making a decision tonight. and I look forward to hearing what planning and zoning is.

Just a few comments. So, Council Member Con Johnson, I am also very interested in light pollution. So, perhaps you and I should put our heads together and talk about that issue in in particular, light pollution generally. Um, and council member Bonsal, thank you for pointing out the sort of catch 22 that was occurring to me as well in that the kind of environmental impact studies that

would help inform our decision aren't triggered until after we've made a decision. Am I capturing that fairly?

Generally, that's when a lot of the site design and analysis would occur. our the town of car's environmental regulations as well as the state buffer requirements

because I I I'm thinking about that tree study in particular. Uh you know in looking through the application materials uh it was noted that there's perhaps alignment in the enrich category of preserving open space. But in some of the neighborhood meeting Q&As's there was a question about clear cutting the lots. And the answer was yes. it would be clear-cut in order to to develop the homes. And that just seems incompatible to me. Um it seems like we can't reconcile preserving tree canopy with clear cutting. Um and but in learning that the tree study wouldn't happen until after the resoning decision, you know, that that complicates, I think, our decision- making. Yeah, I will say so the the tree report would be a requirement of the development plan and our land development ordinance does prioritize preservation of champion trees as well as certain um stands of trees as well. So those existing site features would be taken into consideration. Thank you.

Other questions, other thoughts? Once again, thank you for being here tonight. You're invited back in the future. Uh, like I said earlier, this will go to the planning and zoning board for their review and recommendation. They [clears throat] are not, their decisions are not binding. They're recommendation board. So, if you're looking for them to vote yes or no, that's not what they're doing. They're making a recommendation to us and then it'll come back to us in a few months for a vote. So, thank you again. Thank you, Mr. D. [clears throat] All right, we'll move to our discussion items. First is the funding approval for law

firm investigation and employee engagement. Interw manager Russ Overden will present this item and council may take action. Mr. Overton.

Sure. Thank you, Mayor. Um, these items before you recommends council appropriate funds for two important actions to occur over the next few months to help us move forward as an organization following the resignation of former town manager. First, in light of the issues that led to the former town manager being placed on administrative lead, council request an investigation by a third-party law firm to examine concerns within three broad categories. The first category was procurement card usage, reimbursement of town funds and expenditures of town funds to Steagall and his support staff or other senior staff and council. Second was Steagall's uh reporting to of town finances to the council. And third, the work environment created by Steagle with town staff and the council. The law firm Wombble Bond Dickinson will review existing carry policies and procedures and um provide recommendations including possible policies, practices and methods for the town to consider to address these areas of concern. The engagement letter is attached if in the staff report for any further detail. Um, secondly, I I've directed staff to prepare a robust employee engagement effort as it's been nearly 10 years since our last comprehensive employee engagement survey. Uh, myself along with our leadership team agrees that this is exactly the right time to do another survey or to start doing surveys. Um, and moving forward, I would support doing them more regularly. For us to move forward, we want and we need to hear from employees to understand what's working, what isn't, and what needs attention to move forward. There are two parts of this engagement effort which would be led by an outside firm with experience and research like this focus groups and cross-section of employees uh from across the departments and levels.

A quantitative and qualitative survey designed to capture both standard engagement metrics and carry specific priorities. In addition, the outside firm will assist assist with developing a communication strategy that drives understanding and participation among employees as well as compiling a comprehensive written report with findings and recommendations that will be shared with each of you. Here is a breakdown of um the cost of each of these efforts. And I'll just add to get to the $100,000 cost, there is a $5,000 um addition that wasn't included on the slide for uh contingencies like travel. This slide just shows a summary of mid-year appropriations to date uh including these two should you take action on this tonight and we will keep doing this as you use mid-year appropriations. So, in summary, for the fiscal impact, we expect uh the work associated with the law firm investigations to cost $150,000, and we anticipate the employment engagement plan to cost up to $100,000. With that, uh, staff recommends that council utilize up to $150,000 of funding budgeted within the general fund for mid-year appropriations of the law firm investigation of matters related to the former manager and $100,000 of for mid-year appropriations for an employee engagement plan to include an employee survey. Um, and with that, I'll be happy to answer any questions.

Thank you, Mr. Overton. I think Miss Mayor Pro Tim Bush would like to make some comments. Well, first of thank you so much um not only for the work that you and staff have done, but also for recognizing the importance of an employee survey and and also um speaking about your desire to make it continuous over time rather than how we've done it. feel like I'm the history lesson person, but I thought I would give a little bit of history of the survey requests that

came from council again since we have um some new council members. In 2016 um when UNCC school of government did the survey that was discussed we got a 83% participation which I think is remarkably high and I congratulate the HR and all the department directors for getting that sort of participation and it was very well utilized not only by I know from staff but also from a council perspective. Um and then it really gave us insightful and valuable information. Um and it gave us the pulse of the organization at a time that was really critical. In 2018, we started re thinking about revisiting an employee survey. I was told it was in process and I actually went and found my emails to make sure. Um and then COVID hit and we shifted a lot of what we were doing um to respond there and it was put on the back burner. Then three years ago, we started having discussions at the council table about having an another survey with the town manager. And at that point, council made the suggestion to the town manager to do it. Two years ago, it wasn't a suggestion. It was a director. It was a direction from this council to do. And this year, when it wasn't completed, council specifically directed the office to move forward on November 19th on a survey. Um, and if you look at the dates that that's very indicative as well. But given everything that our organization has been through recently, it's not really a moment. It's how I feel. I I don't feel it's a moment for us to assume that we know how our employees are doing. Um, it's a moment to ask them to listen carefully and to act on what we learn. And I believe in an organizationwide anonymous employee survey done by an outside organization as is proposed. It's imperative to do now and with urgency.

Um our employees are are carrying the weight right now of rapid change of intense public scrutiny and significant high expectations. And we need a clear and honest picture of of of how they're experiencing this moment, this this moment in time. Um, we also need to help them succeed where they're struggling. And without the data to actually know because we are a datadriven organization, we're leading in the dark. So, a well-designed survey gives people a safe and confidential way to tell us the truth and include things that they might not feel comfortable saying through their own chain of command. Also, I think that listening in the structured way is an act of respect. It says to our employees that you're not just the implementers of the policies we create here, but you're human beings and your well-being and your perspective matters. Um, and it it's not just about morale here. It's about the quality of service as well that we deliver to our community because we know that we get higher satisfaction results from our from our citizens and our residents when our employees can perform better. Um, also the employee survey gives us actionable information and not just anecdotes. the qualitative and quantitative data uh proposed that you've proposed is important. I think we need the statistical analysis to understand how different groups and areas within the organization are doing and we do need that qualitative data. We need those stories and this is a lot of money. So I don't think we should wait to till things settle down. We'll miss the opportunity to understand what's going on right now. And I know that the line item for employee engagement includes those focus groups, that qualitative um and it's for me, I can only speak for myself, it's important and valuable, but not right now in this area of and time

of where we're trying, we're watching every dollar. I want the data. I want the quantitative and I want the qualitative at some point in time after we consume and understand the quantitative data. So, I'm not asking to slow things down. Um, but I'm interested in continuing this conversation. So, um, my I wanted to weigh in and share that I think the employee survey component is necessary. It's urgent and it should be done immediately. The other components of it I think can wait for maybe another budget year, maybe a little bit longer when we know what the actual cost would be. But doing this now is how we demonstrate to our staff that they're seen, that they're heard, and that their experience here matters not just to us as a council, but also to the community. So my consideration would be to go back to your uh previous line item and do the survey design distribution analysis and reporting um and leverage that 32,500. Um I know that staff has lots of ways to drive participation. And I'm I'm not questioning the 22,000, but I know that our staff is really great at responding to surveys because they've done it before. So, I'd like to do the survey design and and hold off on the other items. I thought I'd share my thoughts and and the reasonings behind it.

Other thoughts? I'm I'm looking for the breakdown again in how much

it's one of these tabs I open over here. [laughter]

Yeah.

Uh this one. Okay.

What does inerson focus groups and facilitation means here? Like what is the plan?

You would um have I believe it was up to

10 individual focus groups that we would randomly select and have conversations with employees.

But that's already covered under WBLE. that is not covered as employee engagement in WMBBLE. It's it's covered differently from listening. Lisa may want to weigh in on what WBMLE is actually um proposing to do. Yeah, the WMBBEL effort is more focused on what has already happened and is focused on um we'll talk to potentially past employees who have reached out and um shared concerns um and perhaps with some current employees, but it's not intended to be organizationwide um or to have any of the you know u quantitative or um statistical accuracy of any of the uh the survey things that um we're talking about with CRA. So it complements the effort of the survey but it's um in no way duplicating or a substitute for the efforts of the survey.

So thank you Lisa. um working in corporations um one of the ways I've experienced this myself that the um management if they want to do a health check within the organization um information is sent through email and um everybody is encouraged to participate you know by putting their answers in the form and submitting it. there's no communication like communication is done through email but you know nobody's going tapping on the shoulder and reminding anyone and um is that not what we are going to do here like um I'd say plus um obviously we have a diverse workforce we have folks that speak different languages um so different ways in different groups and if you think of the fire department or police department staff that work shift work night work um we need to have different ways to be able to get to all of the employees. And I'd say not just email.

At the time of the last survey, I don't even believe actually everyone had email. Um, now everyone has email, but

uses it to varying degrees.

Yeah,

that makes sense. And that's where exactly I wanted to know. So, do if we just go by survey design, distribution, analysis, and reporting, does that mean that we're going to alienate some staff members because of the reach? The survey would still go out to everyone. The only thing I' I'd comment on communications is we've got a lot going on in the arena of communications and a very thin staff doing it. My concern would be is it would be helpful to have some uh supplemental help in in the ability to communicate. If you want to reduce it, um we will get a survey done with whatever uh funding you decide to give us. I I would just add I think it would be helpful to have some funding in communications based on all that staff is doing right now.

So if we do not today if we decide not to go with in-person focus groups and I'm I'm just throwing some scenarios because I want to understand

and I want people who are listening also to understand like you know what are the pros and cons of different options. Um so we um if we in case if we say inperson focus groups and facilitation is what we do not want. Do we alienate anyone?

Um well, if you don't do them, you you're are funding the budget to do this survey so we can see what we can get done. If we need to have more money and decide um obviously with conversations with you all and what we learned from staff, um we could come back to you and obviously ask for more money in mid-year appropriations if you think that's appropriate. Um there's no right or wrong answer here.

Russ, how many employees do we have?

Uh well, by the budget document, you have 13 and 28. We know that some of those positions aren't fully funded. So, you have actually $12.99.

I did some rough math. You'd be surprised. I gave you a bit of a hard time, right?

What Why is it cost so much? I wanted to know. And and thank you for explaining it fairly thoroughly. And then I I uh actually just double checked my math so I don't say anything really stupid into

this microphone. It's about $75 an employee. So I think you know when I saw a lot of uh citizens saying you know you can do that for a lot cheaper I'll do it for five grand right this is not a doodle poll right this is really comprehensive level setting for us one of the challenges I experience is I know some staff well and others I've never been in the same room with right it is right now I think probably challenging to understand the needs of unique groups um there might be entire areas where we need some investment and direction. There might be others that are doing far better and we just don't know. We there's so much we don't know here. To me, $75 an employee is a reasonable investment to level set so that we can make really informed decisions moving forward because right now we have been saying, well, gosh, I didn't know about that. I wish I knew about that. I've said that too many times to be comfortable in the last couple of months. This investment is a way for us to know more. And so I did immediately push back. I was um I was sort of

I think we all are feeling a lot of pressure to be really really really I want to say cheap. It's not the right word but

but yeah. So, so it we do I had a wonderful conversation with Council Member Richards and and it really it's it's helping me understand that part of our job is to spend money but to do it appropriately and I I think I've come around here where I'm going to say the opposite of what I first said and I feel like this is an appropriate investment. I do understand now um why the costs are what they are and even more so it wasn't until you know you were just speaking Russ that I I realized gosh you really

probably need some outside help getting this done because we are currently so streamlined with our staff. I'm trying to think of a not negative word but um you know we've been on a hiring freeze. We do not have a surplus of individuals with a with time on their hands by any stretch of the imagination. So that's my sort of I I see you agreeing. We we we you help me a lot with your perspective, you know, new to see in a lot of

I appreciate that, Council Member Con Johnson. I the analogy I have used a few times is I understand at this moment of increased scrutiny overspending. It feels painful to spend additional dollars. But the analogy I have used is that when you have an oil spill, you have to then unfortunately spend more resources to clean it up. You don't get to say, "Well, we've made a mess. I don't want to spend more money, so we'll leave the mess as is." And that's just unfortunately where we find ourselves right now. And so I I agree this feels like an investment that perhaps nobody wanted to make, but that we do have to make recognizing the reality of where we find ourselves. And you know, to the notion of activating our wonderful staff, we do do a lot with a very lean workforce, but activating our staff means activating them with some resources. And it looks like these are the resources that are going to be necessary to do the the necessary work right now. And I think also having Womb's work, the law firm's work in in coordination with that to provide that outside review is also imperative at the moment that we are are doing these two things in concert. We are doing some work inhouse through the employee surveys, but we're also hiring uh an outside firm to look at these issues. And I I think it's important, you know, it's it's attached to our agenda. Anybody who wants to pull up the

engagement scope in our contract with the law firm. It is not some redundant effort of just doing more employee surveys. There's also some really important financial work that's going to be done that's going to be very timely um time inensive and and uh costly and so that's why that investment has to be made as well. Yeah,

she looked like she was.

So, in thinking about the timing in my research background, oftentimes focus groups, you do focus groups to get a starting place for gathering additional data. I think we have a starting place for what we want to gather. And when we made the directive over a year ago to do this, I would have been more inclined to say let's let's do a survey. Now I I I'm you know still thinking about pros and cons. You if you get the quantitative data through the survey simultaneously with the qualitative the focus groups we well first of all we we need the information now. We're past time for needing the information. This is not a nice to have. This is a unfortunately it's that should have been done. We could have gathered enough information to save potentially money a lot of stress and concern of our staff from preliminarily what you know we've been told. And so I think time is critical. On the other hand, there's the possibility that if you gather survey data, then you know you need to dig deeper with focus groups. So there's

always potential for for learning more. So I don't think there's a perfect way to do this design, but I am leaning toward we need that information. We need in-depth information from focus groups and we need broader information from a larger number of people to be able to circulate that data and get the best information.

And if you don't mind, I just wanted to clarify my point wasn't that we didn't need

I'm sorry. I mean, and I mean now,

okay, focus group. Um my point is how do we um move forward judiciously, coste effectively, fiscally responsible, prioritizing as well. Um, and also hearing our citizens as as we are about to maybe even reconsider a decision that was made last week because we're all rethinking our decisions on kind of on the fly.

Um, I'm not saying we shouldn't do focus groups or facilitation. I was just saying this is an u right before us right now. If it were me and prioritizing it, I do service design, distribution, analysis, reporting, maybe communications to make sure we hit that 84% participation, but focus groups would be a um lower on my priority list and and as such lower on the budgetary request

right this minute.

Right this minute. Right. So, I want to say something. Um, you know, I got some feedback from Phil um online that you have to be a little bit more intentional when you're actually in the chambers. You have to ask more questions even even though you already know the answers. And I think um this discussion probably will help uh people who are watching

understand how intentional this is and how every component is important. That's why you know there is no um it's not uh the same work that WMBBLE will be doing. It's different focus group probably will be helpful for people who are we cannot reach you know we don't have a reach through email or you know different um uh probably language barrier. So these things are very necessary to collect feedback and I agree with you that at this point um this may look like a big expense but it is needed for to to do a complete health check on where the organization stands. We cannot come back after one year and say oops we should have done a more fuller assessment on the organization. So this probably in my view is critical and I was not trying to take the money away. I was just trying to get more information on these three different components. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, I agree with all you guys uh think that we need the data now and I feel um from the pressure from the public we need a change but this change needs to be made a lot of operation level needs to be made by our interim uh town manager but if people ask me is your staff happy I don't know so we we don't know a lot of things and this survey really give us the data and to make decisions and especially now in this situation Russ has so much pressure and we understand that you need the support from the council and I think this investment will be wise investment but for the budget here I would love to hear more details how the e efficiency are they using AI for the analysis or quicker faster and

get more data and get more uh staff involved so you could get more data. Yeah.

Uh for the future uh decision or make a change. Um yeah, I think uh we need to work together to uh move forward.

To that point, I I'd add I think doing them more regularly. I think of um the same effort that's gone on now for our citizens that's been done for so long as the bianual survey

where you're able to um call it standardized but you ask uh the same questions or similar questions to get data metrics over time since we haven't done that with the employee survey you have nothing this will be the baseline so u I would hope that maybe we become more efficient um you know possibly have cost savings as you continue to do these over the years I don't know if the first one cost more and subsequent cost less that would certainly be something that we could hopefully strive for, but since we haven't done one in so long, I don't know. We'll have a lot to learn from this one. Um, focus groups, the only thing I'll add is um, you know, with with the cost of that was um, important to do with the same as you're doing the survey, but through an outside third party.

Um, no one explicitly said it, but I think it would be difficult to have an internal focus group by le by internal people. So whether you want to cut it and there's 10 again no right or wrong answers. I think it would just be important to do it as part of the effort if this team was going to do it.

Just you brought up BKL research and our bianial survey. Do you happen to have an idea of how much that cost? I thought it was 40,000.

Carrie

is that right?

30,000.

39.

39. Thank you.

I heard 40. [laughter]

I was close at 40. Are we ready for a motion?

I was just going to reiterate, I think Russ basically touched on it, but just because if we choose right now to spend $100,000 on this employee engagement, does not mean every two years we're

going to spend $100,000 on community engagement.

Right? You would see it again as part of a a budget or a midyear or some other expenditure in a future date. anyone at all?

No, I can tell that my motion would not be supported, so I won't make the motion. Um, I I move that we approve uh the staff recommendation that council utilize up to $150,000 of of funding budgeted within the general fund for mid-year appropriation of the law firm investigation of matters related to the former town manager and $100,000 of funding budgeted within the general fund for mid-year appropriation for an employee engagement plan to include an employee survey.

There's a motion. Is there a second?

Second.

Second. need this further discussion.

My only comment will be that I'm going to support the motion because it's imperative that we do it, but I would have loved a a phased way to do it.

And you've been pushing to do this survey for as long as I've been on council.

I have.

So, but we hear you. We understand where you're coming from.

All in favor, please say I.

I. Any oppose? Motion carries unanimously. Thank you, Russ.

We're now at item 6.2. We're revisiting the appropriation of the lot on Walnut for council policy. Council may take one of the following actions. Discuss the issue and take action at this meeting if no additional information is required from staff and the council does not seek public input. Refer the question to a future council meeting at which time a staff report with recommendations would be prepared. Decide not to pursue the council initiated request. So, Council Member Carissa Con Johnson uh asked for this item and I'll turn it over to you.

Thank you. Yes. Um I want to first state that this is um my asking to revisit this item um is not a reflection of a

lack of documentation and information provided by staff. This um and I was discussing this with council member Bonsel uh two days later I think and I'd mentioned it to council member Craig when we were at an event. I was not at my best during that meeting and I got home that night and it had been a long day and I laid in bed and questions started popping into my head which typically I would you know we have an opportunity to ask prior to the meeting. Um that's what what we were talking about earlier. I believe that's kind of what you were saying was we get answers and then we don't say them into this microphone. So I think sometimes people get the impression that we're not doing our due diligence. So, typically we get these staff reports, we read the staff reports, we have an opportunity, the mayor reaches out, asks, "Do you have any questions?" We have the opportunity to ask questions. Um, I didn't have any questions this time, which by the way should always be a red flag when it comes to me. Um, because I'm just a question generating machine, but we we came in, we we heard the presentation and we we approved it. And then I, you know, went home and I was like, "Well, does it have to be paved?" Um, you know, I had basically several questions. So after discussing it with council member Bonsel, she said, "I actually have some questions, too." So that's that's how this came about. Um, so what I'm primarily looking for is a better breakdown of the the dollar amounts that were involved in the in in the two different options. Um, and I've seen a lot of citizens also saying, why is why would returning it to grass or why would that cost that much? Um, and I do, you know, I've got a a familiarity with a lot of the costs involved in a lot of construction projects. And I can promise you they're always more than you think they probably are. There's there's, you know, a significant difference between um, town projects and commercial and generally those costs than there is, you know, what it might cost you to seed your yard. So, I do want to express I understand that. But what what I'm hoping to have is some of those sort of

and I've already shared some of my questions. um didn't give you a lot of time to prepare and I apologize for that but uh just understanding a little bit better what the core of those are what the ADA compliance nuances are uh as as per this parking lot and I shared with with staff that um have seen another lot that's gravel with a handicap spot in Kerry and I'm like why does this need to be paved and I was hoping you could more broadly share just the answers to those uh with with anyone on council might have some questions as well.

Yeah. And um I agree. I think when we were discussing we both were like, "Oh, you you shared this example about the gravel lot and that's ADA compliance." So, you know, getting a little bit more clarity on those things. I mean, I think it's critical, but I was also wondering does this um if we change the design and not use a fence and since it's um you know it's not our property and we only have that for seven years, would that make any significant difference in the pricing? Will we should we just put some plans? Does that you know meet our development requirements? So things like those I think it it just you know uh for clarification might be a good thing.

Sure. I have some slides if you'd like to see them.

I I have just one more question as you're getting ready to do the slides. Maybe maybe every answer we need or want is in the slide. But one of because I wasn't at the council table. I was on the phone um at my daughter's wedding. Um I was having a difficult time following it as well. But thank God I had been in the 3x4 so I had I knew what we were talking about. But what the overarching question I had is when does a temporary space require the highest quality of our investment?

Yeah.

Right. What is the opportunity for us to

look at things a little bit differently

for something that we know is temporary? Do you need sod, right? Do you need a high-end fence? when we already know it's going to be temporary. What are the opportunities for us to look at that a little differently than with our normal high quality carry way of doing?

So that was

you might already have that

very fair.

Uh Mr. Simpson who unless anybody has any questions.

Yep. That's all. That's all.

Um uh Mr. Simpson who gave this presentation at last meeting is out of town. So, I'll do my best to fill in some gaps and give you some additional information and Lisa can help me if we talk about the development agreement at all. Um, I'm really going to go to the map where he oriented you. I think at this point you probably all know where that is with the gravel lot on the south side of the um Walnut Street parking deck and the library there adjacent to the park. And I'm going to skip the schedule, kind of zoom in for you with um a legend on proposed improvements um and specifically maybe draw your attention to the ADA parking spaces that are on the far left side. They're in white. Sorry, it's a little bit small, but it would attach a sidewalk um to the the site that goes into the library or into the park. Yes. Um Ella is pointing to it. Um those ADA spaces I believe as we um put this lot in um was a temporary layown area for construction and construction traffic. Now that it's becoming a more as a temporary permanent if we could use that word term um it needs to have ADA spaces. Um and ADA spaces uh Chrissa are just the only um area that would be paved a hard surface um as required by ADA. I'll speak to the question of um possibly other lots, older parks, other areas that maybe not be up to current ADA standards as they would have met ADA standards at the time of their construction. And then if you do con construction improvements um and

any of those lots, you would need to bring it up to the current ADA standard at the time. The town also has a uh what's called well, we did a a transition study. Um, I believe Lisa can help me with this, but the Department of Justice, um, a town of our size is required to have a a transition plan, as they dub it. We have one. We did a study. You look at your facilities and, um, parks, I guess, and you see what is out of compliance, and you have to have a plan to bring it into compliance over time. Um, and we typically budget ADA improvements, monies, you could call it maintenance if you will, but to bring ADA structures up to standards on other sites over a period of time to work through all the items on that transition plan. That aside, this is just that we'd be making an improvement. We need to bring it up to ADA standards. I'm going to jump to uh the what you didn't have at the time. Jimmy probably could have answered these questions. Um, but to give you kind of a breakdown of what the cost are, um, for the individual items, if you will, are kind of itemized. So, you need, if you're going to keep it a parking lot, uh, for any longer period of time, you need to have ADA parking. So, that's kind of a fixed cost. I think the idea around the faux rot iron uh, fencing was to be something somewhat decorative, but cheaper than rot iron. Um, so that cost is probably a savings of sorts, but you could certainly um not necessarily even have to have a fence if you don't wish. If you wish to um do less fence, you could decide to do that. I think a your broadest potential savings is around landscape and plantings. Hardscape, I can go I'll jump back after I go through these, but you can see we're actually planting uh all the way around it. So, there's probably some significant savings there. Uh you know, that it hasn't been graded out in a long time. that's not a significant cost, but you're going to need to add some stone and rework the stone. Uh the rest rest are potentials and might have savings because your appropriation was to budget funds. Um obviously the intent would be try to do it for less than those funds, but that was kind of the

maximum of what was uh extent to be um spent. All projects have a contingency. I think this one's at 12 and a half% which is actually a little low um on a typical construction project of a contingency. Um, and I don't know if there's any design or permit work needed, but it says if needed, so there may be some savings there. Um, so that's just food for thought if you want to change anything. Um, I'll go back to this legend where it shows landscaping around the entire site. Black fencing around the entire site. Obviously, that was to u make it look a lot nicer than it does look now. Um, you don't have to make it look so nice. Um, but at this point that was the plan that was presented to you. And if you want to take anything away, um, you could, I suppose, le Lisa, uh, change the motion or the vote and do something different if you so desire. And we will then work within the budget you give us, um, to make it look as good as we can within the budget.

So, could you go over temporary on this project, please, because a lot of people don't know what you're talking about.

This is where I'm going to let Lisa tell you what their plans would be. So when [clears throat] you all reviewed the development agreement amendment last summer, um the developer at the time was not ready to construct the second building on the site. So part of the agreement was to give them additional time under the development agreement to construct the building. Um, and so the timeline, and I sketched it out to make sure I tell you correctly, um, on or before September of the year 2030, so just under five years from now, they are required to submit their development plan for the second building and a rendering of what that would look like to you all. So by that time they need to start the process of development which would be the development plan showing the building they plan to build which would go through the normal staff review process and then also you as a council under the agreement would look at their renderings and have the right to um approve or reject what they're planning

to build. Um once they they also are obligated to start construction by 2032. So these are kind of maximum end dates. They could begin construction earlier. They are required under the agreement to start by 2032 and to complete construction within three years. Um, under the terms of the agreement, when they are ready to begin construction, they have to give the town at least 180 days notice um, so that we can essentially vacate the gravel lot and, you know, we'd have six months to prepare um, to lose the lot. So, they have a notification requirement to let us know when construction would start. So worst case scenario, we could be looking at a lot whether it's grass or gravel for six years or more. Six years before construction,

seven almost seven, six and a half before they would start construction.

Um and they again they if they were ready to begin work on a building today, they have to go through the development plan process. That takes for a building this size, I would think it would probably take at least a year.

Agree. um and also get your approval on the renderings. Um and so that process has not started yet. So that it would you know if they started today with that process would estimate it would be at least a year before they would be in any position to start construction.

So temporary could be as little as a year and a half or as long as seven

years. And Lisa, does anything in that agreement or our other ordinances compel us to have to do if we keep it as parking spaces, the fencing for safety or the landscaping for aesthetics? Is any of that specified? So, on the wording of the agreement, which was attached to that staff report back in June, um is to require the town to improve the existing gravel parking lot by such means as adding landscaping, upgrading the fencing, or making accessibility improvements. So, it

wasn't a mandate of exactly what to do, but it was improve it essentially make it look better than it does today. Improve it in some way. And those ways could include landscaping, upgrading the fencing, or accessibility improvements. or I mean right 88

I don't want to speak for all of us but I I I think it might be a shared opinion that almost anything we do there will be an upgrade that the deteriorating green construction fencing is is not very aesthetically pleasing and so I mean to my thinking I mean this sounds lovely

but I don't know that we need the fencing and the planting I sort of have the same concern about the landscape plantings that I did about the idea of grass in general, which is we don't know how temporary this is going to be. To Russ's point, this could be long-term temporary. Uh, but we know that someday a building will be there. So, what we plant is going to I mean, all of this is going to eventually be replaced by what whatever is developed there. Um, and so I just I I don't know that if if we were to if we were to make the ADA required improvements and the grading and and renew the gravel there, if having it just as the lot there, minus the the bit of an eyesore we have with the deteriorating construction fencing. I I don't know that I personally find that objectionable. Maybe some minimum plantings just to now. Would we be violating any of our own um ordinances for parents standards?

I'm looking at Scott possibly. I don't know.

Major that

if you if you happen to know.

So we um exempt ourselves from a lot of our ordinances. So I don't think there'd be anything that would apply.

That is not the answer I expected.

[laughter] You've seen some of our signs.

Yep.

Comply. I guess to add to we would typically try like to try and follow our own

if if it was a a private development. We'd put plantings between the parking and the you know to kind of buffer parking. So there would be some plantings that would be required.

Okay. So if So but not a fence.

Not a fence.

That So that's not required for any reason.

Well, and it's parking there now. Maybe if I kind of lean in what Scott said, it's currently a temporary parking lot without these things. It was put into the development agreement as a means of uh making it look nicer.

Can someone help me remember? Did we talk about that fence last time in terms of it being a safety feature

a little bit? Uh because you have direct access here. Let me go back to the um just because the cars with the and it was also for the hardscape. I think there was a retaining wall

um in that area as well. Um keeping gravel off the sidewalk possibly. You see there's two uh walkth through openings, but as Mr. Simpson I remember pointing out kind of um a demarcation point between the parking lot and the sidewalk.

I think uh at least having minimum plantings to keep gravel off the sidewalk is that would be prudent. which is um and kind of why I guess I was suggesting um if you wanted to cut that if you still want a fence and you wanted it in a particular area um you could certainly defund part of that if you want or take take a different vote to fund something different.

I have one more question to make sure that I fully understand. Russ, are you did you were you saying earlier that ADA spaces without the concrete pad today would not meet standard

you need to

like a new one

a new one you would have it concrete

because

or asphalt. Council member Con Johnson mentioned it earlier, but we were at an event and I saw her mouth drop open and she days after this something like

and I was like what? Like what's going on? And it so I mean

living in a home built in the 70s, I know we have some stairs going to the attic that would not be compliant to today's standards. So, I'm very familiar with the idea of current code versus previous and I assumed that might be but was definitely clarification.

And actually, I just want to be clear. I'm not saying we should just do gravel lots for handicap parking spots. I saw a resident say, "I'd like to see you get, you know, through a parking lot in my, you know, my chair. Good luck with that." Right? It's actually the opposite. Like, oh, okay. we need to make sure that we are paving and and you know they're they're up to whatever current standards are standard. So I'm I'm I'm not surprised at all that there's a plan to bring every spot up to standard. Um but it's it's I didn't realize that the ADA compliance standards has have shifted significantly. That was

they continue to change so you're not grandfathered into anything as you build new or have to do upgrades.

Yeah. So that's good to know and I'll notice that more I think than I would have before. This is educational.

Um I did I'm sorry I'll say you didn't go there but if anybody want I don't didn't have time to put it in a slide. I have the breakdown of the um converting it back to grass but if that's not what you're voting on you may not need it. I just have it um with me. I'll go on record and say I was not a proponent of returning it to grass for two reasons. One, I I'm usually a big proponent of more green space and open

space, just not in this particular instance, and our mayor promoted this in particular. Once you add an asset like open space, knowing that it is temporary, it feels like we are adding it just to have to one day uh subtract it, which makes it feel more painful. And plus, we all know that we value additional parking opportunities downtown. So, it felt like keeping it gravel. So, for me, I don't need to reopen the conversation about returning it to grass. But, of course, welcome my colleagues weighing in. I agree. I agree.

And I didn't have the opportunity to vote on it the first time. Um, but let me can I try to guess what every Oh, I'm sorry. What are you saying?

Did you try to circle up on where we might be? But go ahead.

That's exactly what I was doing my mind. So, I think what I'm hearing is that, you know, we all understand and respect the Kerry standards and we would have wanted that if this was a permanent um lot for um downtown. But I think what we see today is that this could be one year, it could be seven years, it could be 10 years, who knows, right? and the investment may not um have the returns that we would the RO ROI might not be as uh what we were be expecting probably I I'm also of a belief that you know whatever minimum that we can do to accomplish our goal to get ADA parking to do to get some spots there I think we should try to achieve that um only in this case only because it's a temporary permanent lot whatever you sorry

terminology that you have used. So black fencing land minimal landscape uh landscape sorry I can't talk now landscape planting is probably would be appropriate for this site. Um I think that's where probably everybody was

leaning where you didn't say anything. You're fine with that.

I'm totally fine with wherever you guys go on this.

Okay. So um yes I'm not um leaning towards grass either. So, um, whatever minimal is required to keep it concrete and just with, um, no black fence, minimal planting, I think should do the job.

Maybe moderate planting.

Okay, let's just say moderate planting.

We really don't need gravel on that sidewalk. I walk on that sidewalk all the time and I just kind of imagined how much we would regret.

But will we have gravel? Because they're saying concrete pad, right?

It's gravel adjacent to the sidewalk.

Yeah. On the road. Okay.

There's not much space between the sidewalk and the what do you call that? Fencing.

That makes sense.

Green screen fencing. Yeah, the screen fencing.

Um, so there there's really not much distance. So

moderate planting.

Moderate planting particularly along Walnut Street I think really does.

And Russ, what is moderate planting? [laughter]

We'll leave that to staff discretion. How about that?

You're voting staff of money.

Yeah, you're voting on what you want, then they'll fix it.

Yes. I I'm easy with halves or uh some version of that amount of money. We can total it later if you need. I think I just kind of need to know which line items you want to do and what amount you want per line item so we can total that and do the budget adjustment necessary. Just as a reminder, um the action that you took two weeks ago was to authorize staff to take from the midyear appropriation line item in the budget up to $125,000 to do the upgrades at the gravel parking lot. I think if you're interested in changing that authorization, um you could number one vote to resend the previous action and then vote on a new action. Um, and that would be something along the lines of authorized staff to spend up to new dollar amount

um out of the midyear appropriations line item to upgrade the gravel lot.

So, Lisa, we I also heard in um I don't remember there's so many meetings now. I mean um uh one of the meetings where we discussed that you know uh when council actually voted it was for that the maximum amount that we are authorizing for staff to for this particular project is uh 125k not necessarily this entire amount will be used. So, can we uh instead of taking the wood back, would it make sense to just say that, you know, remove the black fencing and keep the um landscaping moderate? That would not do it.

So, the staff would still have the authorization to spend up to $125,000. If you don't resend the prior action, got it.

I'm I don't expect them to do that. If you direct them not to do that, but technically that authorization would still be in place. I I would only add then you would not have access to the uh the monies back in midyear appropriation. It would close out when the project closed out likely return to the general fund and be available looking at Stacy a little bit but then be available for uh possible reallocation the next uh budget year.

But we could just move to amend the previous action by a flat amount

and then that would go back to your midappropriation,

right?

Midyear appropriation. Russ and Liso, another clarifying question. Preparing for the law of unintended consequences. If we proceed with our moderate landscaping and come to regret that decision because we have gravel all across the sidewalk or safety concerns, what is our opportunity to revisit this yet again?

Another midyear appropriation.

That's right.

Correct. Okay. because obvious it's a great point. Moderate is not defined. Some um public works may put it in and someone may not like that. Um, you know, we can deal with it when we see it. It'll look a lot nicer than it does now with whatever you grant us.

So, Lisa, how would we decide the amount now?

I leave that to you. [laughter]

Um, but I would recommend just for clarity doing it in two votes. One being a vote to rescend the prior action and the second [cough] being a vote to [clears throat] appropriate X amount from the midyear appropriations towards this project. Whatever whatever amount you desire.

They'll make anything you give them money to make. They'll do as much as they can with it.

That's basically where they'll go

because I see one of our options.

Do you want to do the risen?

Sure. I move that we

Well, I'm sorry, council member. I was going to ask one more question. Okay.

If we didn't want to execute both tonight, because I see, you know, one of our options here is that we can refer to a future council meeting,

would an option be to resend the authorization tonight, but in a future council meeting put on the consent agenda a revised dollar amount?

Yes,

that's fair.

So that you could budget agenda. I appreciate it. I don't have to say anything. [laughter] You guys are doing it well. I appreciate smarts also.

I think that is smart. because I I don't want to just come up with a random dollar amount.

Richard can find anything on her [laughter] screen. I'm like, where is it?

If you wish to maybe give a little direction on where um you'd like to take away from would allow staff to get moving on it, we can bring back an action on a consent.

I think we're in agreement about eliminating fence.

Yes, that is 100%.

All right, let's resend first and then have that.

Okay.

Okay. I'll make a motion to rescend our previous decision um budget uh appropriating $125,000 to improve the

lot on Walnut Street.

Second.

There's a motion and a second. Discussion. All in favor, please say I.

I.

Any oppose? Motion's unanimous. So, we're now not doing anything and not meeting developer agreement. So, what are we going to do next?

You still have time to meet the developer agreement. Your

So, what's the feedback? No offense is

all I've heard.

Do we have to give a dollar amount this or we can just give feedback?

Um so I think to follow the procedure on um this you could then vote to refer the request to a future council meeting in which time staff report with recommendations will be prepared for your review and approval.

But what are we in agreement to do? No offense is all I heard.

And moderate landscape

maybe landscaping in half or a little more than half

reduction. Okay. So that would be helpful for at least staff to start thinking and you know planning for the work to move forward

and you can make that in the form of a motion to refer it back to staff for a future council meeting with the direction to look at what you just said about no

no fence have to landscape

and I know this is now really minutia but I think with the landscaping our top concern is gravel retention and not aesthetics. So whatever moderate

ready to make a motion [laughter]

whatever moderate landscaping requires is required to meet that objective not necessarily.

Yeah. And I want staff to have some wiggle room here. We don't know maybe that retaining wall was really important or something like that or maybe part of it is and so I don't want to be too prescriptive.

So right let them make a recommendation.

Yeah I think those marching orders will

Is that your motion?

No. The mayor's going to make one.

I'm making it. [laughter] and the safety especially for the safety issue just uh let us know which part we couldn't give up for safety.

Okay.

I feel like the motion was [laughter] cut down here.

I I'm going to attempt this. I make a motion that we direct staff to come back at a future council meeting with a revised budget that reflects no fencing and a revised landscaping budget.

I'd like to Is there a second?

I'll second. And was that your first motion?

It was. Yeah. Congratulations.

Discussion. Everybody understand the motion? All in favor, please say I.

I.

Any oppose? Motion carries unanimously. Russ, you clear on that one?

Yes, sir.

Okay, awesome.

Russ, I will not make a habit out of recalling. [laughter]

The council does need to That concludes our regular agenda. The council does need to go into close session. So, I would entertain a motion to do so.

I'll put the motion.

Whoa.

All right. Pursuant to GS143-318 um.11a1 comma 3 and6 I move that we hold a close session to consult with attorneys employed by and or retained by the town in order to preserve the attorney client privilege between the attorneys and the town prevent the disclosure of information that is made privileged or confidential pursuant to the laws of the state including GS143-38 18.10E are not considered a public record within the meaning of chapter 132 of the general statutes. Consider the qualifications, competence, performance, character, fitness, conditions of appointment or conditions of initial employment of one or more individual public officers or employees. hear or investigate a complaint, charge, or grievance by or against an individual, public officer or employee.

There's a motion,

second

and a second. Discussion. All in favor, please say I. I.

Any opposed? Motion carries unanimously and council will go into close session and in room back here. Okay. Thanks.

We've reconvened our council meeting. We have no further business this evening. This meeting is adjourned after I get a motion from the council. I [laughter] forgot. We used to just have me adjourn it.

Make a motion to adjurnn. Second.

Motion. Second. Discussion. All in favor, please say I. I

any opposed? Motion carries. We are ajourned. Thanks. [laughter]