Committee Meeting

Sorry for closing the door. I'm closing you. Chris, he's tough. We're not going to lock you up. And, by the way, we'll be live when you're ready. Good. Feel free to call a recommendation meeting. Our final task was to provide updated information to the council. We spoke with them about salary and benefits recommendations, as well as the creation of a residents' committee. We also provided them with updated information about benefits. Uh, at that time, well, it's still true that any changes we make to salaries will happen after the next budget or will be part of the next budget. Uh , but since then I've been told that the auditor expects us to make changes by February, which would mean we probably need to do something by January, which probably means we need to form a committee as soon as possible. So I would recommend that we spend this evening working on the issue of participating in the advisory committee, and maybe it will just take a few minutes, and then we will go back to where we were last time in the deep dive. We have a lot of work to do, so we can immerse ourselves in anything. And our next meeting, just so we were in sync, was on October 22nd. Thank you. Yes. Okay, we'll see. October 22nd, and do you know what day of the week it is ? Thursday, Thursday, right before the council meeting. Okay, Thursday, October 22nd. Yes. Of course. And to help with the discussion, I'm going to distribute the recommendations to the residents' working group. This is something to work from when you start your discussions. The previous part is just the impact on staff, so it's

more for your information. But the flip side is, um, how we think about how we're going to assist you in setting up this committee from the clerk's office, knowing that we're probably going to be involved in gathering names and making sure that they're, um, aware of the indictment and, um, the appointment process, we just emailed it out . And , um, that's something to start with. This is so helpful. Thank you. And while she's handing it out, any recommendations we make tonight that require council approval will be forwarded to which meeting? So, if we say that the board should approve the creation of this committee, actually its creation, because I think the direction was to ask us to move forward with this process. But now what we're going to do tonight, I think, is, um, form a recommendation that this committee needs to be formed in October, um, with members of each advisory board, and here are the tasks or things that we would like them to focus on. So, what meeting will this be at in October? Yes, um. So, if you go back to the council, there will be two meetings in October . October 8th, and then October 22nd. So we can at least say, council, we need you to create this committee, approve the creation of this committee. And then on October 22, at the council meeting, we can give instructions. God, this is kind of late. I hope not. Well, maybe we can do it now. Mhm. Therefore. And just as a reminder, the work session decided to create a residents' committee to recommend compensation. Each advisory board appoints a member. A recommendations committee will determine the size of the charge and the work, which will begin later this year or early next. So, we have already approved it. So, Lisa, is that how you

understand it? Yeah, so I think you're starting to work ... Okay. Good. So, you start working on the accusation. Good. And that's even better. On the issue of order of operations, we can do something at the same time, which is, uh, the clerk 's office can send out this email to start the recruitment process even as we're still working out the size of the charge once the composition is finally approved. Yes. Good. Good. So it looks like maybe we can... Mhm... do a few things at once. Yeah, and then, um, the line here about related charges could be changed. It was just a draft, um, but I just wanted to give them something they could expect if they hadn't watched any of this. Of course. Mhm. I hope so. I have not reviewed this proposal, but the proposal was to establish a committee of residents to recommend compensation. So I would just fix it here. Hmm. So looking at it, that assumed one meeting per month? Hmm, you, hm, what is it? Emails on the back, on the front page, hmm, impact on staff in one meeting a month. This was just for reference. There's no, um , when you start, when you start, maybe if you look at the last page to decide on public access, other than in-person presence and calls. So if you're broadcasting this live, that's where some of the impact on staff comes into play. Because it, um, involves additional staff to help with the live broadcast. Good. Do you think we should let the committee determine how often they want to meet? We have Thanksgiving, we have the December holidays, and we hope to have them over by January, the end of January. I think it

will depend partly on how big the accusation is. Hmm. Good. So maybe once we clearly define the scope of work, it will let them know exactly how many tasks we are giving them. Good. And they may go beyond, I said the OSA deadline is February, but they may go beyond other things that are perhaps related to Wumble and Gerrymandering. Hmm. Yes, they don't necessarily have to end in January. Yes. Good. Where would you like to start? Well, from this email that Jenny provided us . So, Jenny, this will be for the liaison staff to outline the process for them to get our board chairs. So, let 's just go through the chain of command , so to speak. Um, I mean, uh, I think this seems like a great way to start the process. And I think you, uh, left a lot of room in the wording so that we could continue to prepare the indictment. I would rewrite that first sentence, and that's the only place I would, uh , tweak the text a little bit . Um, okay. I mean, since we got approval to create a resident advisory working group to...I don't know if there's enough clear assistance to the council with recommendations related to the investigation to clearly clarify...I would say to provide recommendations on new policies that were identified in the course of the three investigations, if you will , last year. Does this make sense? I know this is a bit divisive, but to make it clear what we're

asking them to do... Yes. Okay, that makes sense. Yes, I agree with this formulation, and we can do it ... New policies to address the identified problems...Is that what you meant? Or problems related to a specific council, identified during last year's investigations. I think it needs to be made clear that we are asking them to provide recommendations on what has been recommended. But the problem is that we , the recommendations committee, are asking them to recommend recommendations. Follow the recommended guidelines...I speak as a lawyer. But other than that, it makes sense to you. Yes, I mean, write it in a way that it gets sent to the contact representative and the clerks. We hope they will pass it on to the entire council. So we write it in a way that people can read it early and come away with it ready, whether they need the volume or not. Absolutely. Yes. Good. And I just watched. I want to make sure I'm clear , and we're clear when we talk about February 2027. Um, the implementation date that we reported to the auditor's office. This concerned meal expenses on council trips and the council's education reimbursement policy. Good. I wasn't sure that was what you were assigning to the task force. So I just wanted to clarify. Is there another one, Jenny, or did I miss it? Compensation. Compensation was not audited, they do not audit it.

I'm just putting artificial pressure on the community, the working group, if we don't need to. I think the way it is...I'm just looking at what's online from our response to the auditor. Um, we write this way. So there are two of them. Council education expense reimbursement policy, council travel expense policy. And our policy implementation day will be reviewed alongside the council's relevant training and education policies. Council policy approval must be completed by February 2027 and requires a council vote in open session. Yeah, so I do n't know if we've reached that decision yet. My personal recommendation, my personal recommendation to the recommendation committee before we recommend it to the board, is that we continue our work as a body on the work that we essentially did last week, travel, training, meals, and that we narrow the scope of the residents' advisory committee to compensation. This is salary and allowances. Agree. And then if we can't... As I imagined, if we get stuck, say, when we're just not sure what we think about one of these questions, we can also ask them specific questions . They can always say "no," "we don't want to consider it ," "or if they should disband ," or, you know, something like that. But we, you know, maybe when we complete that task, we can say, and if you know you're willing and able to continue to serve, we might have additional special considerations for you so that you can potentially make a recommendation to the board. So, the sentence will move to the second sentence, topics will include compensation and assistance to elected

officials and potentially blah blah blah. Yes, I can rewrite this sentence. So, the topics will include compensation and assistance for elected officials, and remove that second sentence between the commas and just leave it, and potentially other related issues as determined by the board. Because, to your point, Chrisso, I can imagine a universe, depending on how our work goes, in which we get a version of travel, tuition, and meals recommended, voted on, and approved by the board while the residents' committee is still doing its job. And as opposed to having them create it from scratch, essentially being an extra pair of eyes to say, " If we decide to do it this way, right?" If we decide so, here is our new policy. Maybe it would be an opportunity to see consistency with whatever recommendations the committee is going to make, but we could...we could still continue down this path. We could also have a majority of the board that would support something that is such a work product, but we could have three that would say, "I'm just into this, this is what I prefer." And, you know, even if we had a simple majority, in that case it could be something that you would bring to the group's attention to get unbiased feedback from a third party. So, now I will move on to technical issues. If I were a member of the committee, the first thing I would ask is when do you guys meet? Because I can only meet at blah-blah-blah-blah- blah. So, we probably need to decide on a date, and we probably need to know what's available. So, Ginny included this item. I haven't turned the page yet. That the dates for the recurring meetings have not yet been set. The working group will determine its

meeting schedule once membership is formed, and that is exactly what we did. Good. First we elected our members, and then the three of us sat down and compared calendars. So maybe it makes sense to let them choose their members first. And you know, maybe we should bring this to the attention of the staff , because they help the boards make decisions among themselves. We have not yet determined the time and location of recurring meetings, but please consider your availability if you would like to attend a meeting. Good. Because if we...Yeah, I mean, the people who volunteer the most tend to have the busiest schedules. Right? And as a result, you will get something like " I can work anytime." I am retired and I am only available during these two hour blocks each week. Because I assume we are thinking about evening hours, like most of our boards, to accommodate a standard work schedule. We could, um, we actually had a paragraph and we crossed it out. We know that this will not happen on the same evening as the other meeting because that would deprive the person volunteering of the opportunity to be absent from the board. Yes. And so we found a few slots that we could offer on Wednesday, maybe at 5pm before HPC. It would be very helpful if you listed probably the most likely potential meeting times that don't conflict with the current board schedule, because that's actually a very good point. If I'm on a public arts advisory board, I say, " Okay, if it's not 6:15 on Wednesdays, that's fine," and I don't think, "Oh, well, the other meetings are on Mondays and Tuesdays," and I have to admit, I'm shocked that there's any date and time on the calendar that we were able to find. Okay, here it is. We will also discuss the possibility of holding daytime meetings. We have a senior council that meets in the afternoon, so we will also have daytime meetings, depending on the composition of the council.

You know what? And you...uh, I thought I saw the wording here, or maybe it's the other way around...Oh, just about public access, but, um, you know, what flexibility would there be for regular members about remote meetings...um, because I'm sure that could open up a lot of daytime access for working people if they could have meetings remotely. It's up to all of you, and whether you want to do it in person, or maybe I think remotely would be a good fit. I think that's what ... Yes. Anything we can do to make it as flexible as possible for residents. Almost 2027. At the moment, everything has to be done remotely, says a woman who works remotely. Yes, even more. So I don't object to giving them a fully remote option . For the entire council or just a hybrid option for those who want to come, and I would do it for the entire council. That would probably be easier. We can do anything . Therefore. It's always very uncomfortable to be here with one or two people, and yes. Yes. What does this give to staff if it is only remote? Is this better or worse? Well, I'll tell you, I don't think we have an advantage, for better or worse. If they do it remotely , um, let's see. If we and it's during the day, you know, it works well because we don't have to open the building at night to have someone here and so on. And if you're also set up remotely, for example, for the public, I don't know if it's a call or if you want to broadcast it live. We can all do this. So I would say it gets rid of the physical building and everything that goes with it . I mean, I'm leaning towards that path. I'm there. Completely remotely , okay. Does

the public have access to this live or do they just call in like we do with other councils? As with other councils. Yes. I suppose this is the easiest. Yes. Yes, I can imagine this opens up a lot of planning opportunities for our volunteers. Because of that, and because they don't really make the final decisions, Lisa. Completely remotely, that's fine, because it 's an advisory board. Mhm. When it comes to voting, shouldn't it be remote? Yes. Well, the council has a separate charter that governs the council's operations, and that charter specifies that you all must be present in person to vote. Mhm. Um, for councils and commissions , um, we just need to hold open meetings. Good. So they can be, you know, any way we want. Except for the board of adjustment, one of our special, our special boards. And when they do something quasi-judicial, it's a little different. Um, but the rest of the advice, which is just giving recommendations , is fine. Good. Good. What about meetings? And the third is that a lawyer is appointed by appointment. The mayor does this. Hmm. And, um, you usually have to be at regular meetings or an open session. This can happen at a work meeting. So, deciding whether you want a lawyer present for this, I would say "no." I think this is a very specific case where we strive to achieve as much objectivity as possible. I think the answer is no, unless we absolutely need it. You don't need to. Good. I like it too . I mean, I've always felt that when a council member is present at a council meeting, participating or

saying something, or even if it's virtual, it's just a fly on the wall. Yes, it just distorts everything. If you stay away and let them do their thing, yes, you will get better results. Agree. The only thing is, what to do if they have a question? You know, but we have a personnel coordinator, right? You could have a personnel coordinator, yes. I think that would work. Mhm. Thank you, Chris. Yes, someone who can answer our questions. I'm sure there will be questions. I thought that was...And I would say again, if you limit their scope to mostly compensation and allowances... That was really Cherry Becker's recommendation. Good. And so it doesn't have a time frame associated with it. I also have what I would call a citizen's recommendation. I think that's what I've heard about pretty much the most at this point. Yes, actually you all add compensation. You are looking at it more broadly. The recommendations from different people were a little narrower, so you expanded them to have a more holistic view. Good. Yes. Good. So, are we ready to delve into the accusations? Of course. One thing that comes to mind is that I think I mentioned before that the compensation, the overall compensation, should be fair and consistent with other municipalities, larger and smaller than us.

Mhm. Um, and I hope they strive for that . Um, and the reason for that is because I don't want anyone not to run for office because they can't afford it. Mhm. This is perfect. This is a perfect example. Mhm. Emm. I know I've had this question before. I think this is a glimpse into how my brain works, starting with the end goal before we've figured it out. So, also a question for the staff. What do we think the actual charge document would look like? Will we be tasked with creating it? Will this fall on the shoulders of the staff? How detailed should it be? So, going back to what the end result is, it helps me think about what exactly we need to create. Do you have any? EAB and P&Z. You have a package of agendas at the beginning. Does EAB do this with the agenda package ? Here's what we'll discuss, and here's how everything will go in order. So, basically, a pretty standard agenda. I don't know if I would call it a map. Good. So, I expect it to be similar to how my board coordinators approach it: here's the upcoming meeting, here's the document packet, here's any resources you need to review a piece of public art that we're going to consider or a speaker who's coming to speak to the Senior Advisory Board, and here are additional resources. Good. And if there were, um, specific issues like here's what you can vote on here or here's what you can consider, that would be part of that agenda. So, my brain tells me that there will be an initial agenda that will have something like a document packet. Good. It will include some of the resources they will need. Here's, you know, the current pay scale, and, you

know, whatever was decided there, because that's where I'm starting right now, what do they need for that? They need a lot of what's in this folder. Here is the council's research. Here's, um, the compensation we used to get when we did the reviews, we used to get compensated, you know, here's how it compares to other cities and so on. So, just that kind of basic information, and then literally two paragraphs that say, "Here's what the board has asked you to do," hmm, to make it extremely clear what we're asking them to do. And I think it's important that we include in there things that we don't require them to do, or that they can do or not do at their own choice. It's in my head, I think it will give us what we're looking for. Yes. Just a suggestion, because I've been looking at this article for ages, but it has five or six different recommendations from Jerry Becker of the One Vote Office of the State Auditor. So I was imagining something like this, where you say the task force would review or recommend a comprehensive policy that would include a sentence or two where you're all like what their recommendations were to us from Jerry Becker and others. So, you know, you kind of give the working group, as you said, it could just be a sentence or two about what they should do, and then any supporting materials that you want to give them; and then I expect them to go and find their own resources. Yes. Yes, I can imagine giving them, simply because we have it so readily available, the Charlotte and Raleigh reports that they created. Um, because I think it's kind of a pattern. I mean, again, the scope of those two committees was much broader than ours, um, because they were looking at this. Uh, term lengths and election cycles, and, you know, their board is much broader. Um,

but I think all this salary comparison data is the pattern we had in mind. Yes, and he...Well, that's why I think they need some background information. Whatever basic information we call a reliable source on which we would base decisions, I would like them to consider the same thing. I suspect that I could go to one AI and you could go to another, and we could ask in the same places and it would give us different information. Hmm. Um, so I don't want us to work on separate sets of information, but I also think we should make it as non-directional as possible. And I completely understand and agree with what you said about a certain minimum wage so that it doesn't ...I think most people understand that if you don't pay us anything , you're only going to get the wealthy and/or retired, or people who own their own businesses. I really believe people understand that, but I don't want to be too harsh. Yes. If a group of nine resident citizens say we're not worth a dime, we need to hear it for some reason. I don't think so. I think people appreciate what we do. Hmm, I think even those who are angry at, say, me personally today probably still don't think I should do this without compensation. I would rather not give them too many protective fences because it feels a little too much like trying to steer a ship. They don't want people pointing at us and saying, "Yeah, but you said they had to do this." So, you know what I mean? It just seems more neutral. Yes. To avoid giving them too many instructions. Back to my question: Are we creating this

document, or do you think you should create it to make sure it's consistent with city practice for our advisory board? I'll leave that to Jenny. I'll also just say that I envisioned a two-year indictment, and then you could tell us what information you wanted to share with them , and then it would be easy to put together a package. But if you all came up with this... Okay. With the double-sentence of accusation... this paragraph, the double-sentence of accusation, and then they said, and I want them to have the Raleigh study and the Charlotte study , and what a list of things there is. And then just the office, they got together and started working...I mean, for me, it's not necessarily, you know, I'm ...I'm going to brainstorm. Not necessarily the final wording that we will develop in the indictment, but I mean, I personally hope that we will get an understanding from the residents of what fair compensation looks like by doing all the comparative studies. I would really like to know the different ways to determine this compensation, whether it is a single salary or whether it is salary plus allowances, and I would really like to answer questions about the pros and cons of either . Hmm. You know, the pros and cons of a single salary compensation compared to how we , and it seems like all of our colleagues, do it, comparing salary plus benefits. And that's the data I hope to get out of this. Now let's look at this differently. I'll just ask a question. Should we receive allowances or not? And what should our total compensation be ? That's all. I would ask them how much they think we should pay. And how this payment should be paid. Um, and

specifically, do you think we should be paid bonuses? And if so, what should this payment be? What is a reasonable amount? And finally, the last part of the assignment, I would ask them to determine if, when, and how our salaries should be increased. Future. I would like to know three things I would like to know: is it 3% per year? Is this a circle? What does it look like? Do you think it should be... I'm asking how you maintain compensation over time? Yes. Um, I'm curious too, and Lisa, I don't know if you have the answer to that question off the top of your head. I mean, the law , in my opinion, is read very broadly. It says, you know, salary plus reimbursement or fixed allowances, um, and I can't remember exactly how it's worded right now, but fixed expense allowances. Um, it seems like almost all municipalities have defined these costs as a certain version of technology and a certain version of the vehicle. But I haven't seen it stated anywhere . So is it just a convention that we all more or less looked at each other and said these are categories? Because I didn't see anyone with other categories. So, I mean, you might be mistaken in thinking that this was mandated by law because it seems so standardized. Well, it was like some of them were broken, you know, the cell phone is separate. I saw some who had scholarships for the internet. I saw some that had executive bonuses. Um, just a few where it was something like...And I don't think they had any other allowances. They just had something like...here, here's some money. We know it costs money in this position, you know, combining all the allowances into... Yeah. Yes. as if to simplify, I think. Yes. Because this will be the main issue regarding allowances. It will be a matter of whether to have them or not. And if you have them, what are the

categories? And if you have categories, how many? Yes, and the law says that if you have a fixed allowance, then a fixed allowance for travel and other personal office expenses. Good. So, these are all the guidelines you get from the law. Sorry. Do we want them to write a policy or draft a policy, or just make recommendations so we can draft a policy? I assume we are looking for something like labeled recommendations. This is what I'm looking for. And then we can develop the policy with people who know what they're doing when it comes to writing policy, and then... we can ask them to sign it. Yes, that's what we meant , and that's what was signed. Yes. Because I think if they give us the format and the numbers, right? So, like structured compensation plus amounts or ranges or whatever, we could probably take that and incorporate it into the policy framework. I know we rarely do this. Uh, we're an organization that's made up of full sentences, but I think it would be clearest to do it in bullet points. Mmm. The Council requests your recommendations on how we should develop a policy to address the following issues: Council compensation, sub-para. Mmm. Yes. Salary. Allowances, should we have allowances or not? Uh, you know, a new point. If so. If so, then yes. So , just to be very, very clear, to be... Sometimes I think if you put everything in a paragraph, it's easy to miss what you're looking for. And then we can share the recommendations that we are trying to address. And I don't know if I should point out what the main

goal really is, which is to achieve compensation that is fair and transparent to us so that we can share it with the taxpayers of Kerry. Yes. Yes, absolutely true. Do you want Ricola? Yes, I have. I always have, always have, I'm out of breath, but about 10 Rickols are here . I have n't coughed all day. But I have a decent neck. You need this option. These things are magic, original. Yes. And for me, the main documents they need to provide, I think, are Charlotte and Raleigh. I don't know if we'll come up with anything else. Because again, you know, it's such a fine line between giving them useful references and, um, narrowing down the research that they, you know, should be able to do on their own. Here's what I have. Actually, that's a really good point, because then we can include their research. Perhaps we could also say, "And please show us the resources you used to make that decision." Then we can be absolutely. Let them do the work. And I think that in part these are the best sources. Sorry, they're already up. Partly other resources. Because it seemed to me that they were well documented. I thought they had meaningful appendices that really showed their calculations, their work on how they arrived at their decisions. And so I think this can be useful not only for the content of the report, but also as an example of what the final product might look like. Yes. You are right. You are right. And I'm looking at the email from Mayor Pro Tem Bushes' Council that she sent you at the beginning. And it had a page with links at the very end. Hmm, so it might be useful to look at that. Or, if you remember, um

, she cited an article from the Stanford Law Review that the lawyer in me loves. Hmm, and then she made a few points from some primary sources from Raleigh. And then she provided links to Charlotte, Wilmington, and some other states, ahem, Spokane . I don't know. Some other states. Hmm, so if that's what you're referring to, maybe it would be easy to just include that. Of course. This full list... We could also ask this committee if they would like some of the previously removed resources that we have been looking at. This will be added to your minutes for your first meeting. So it's already ... It's already there. Or so, okay. Already. Perfectly. So we agreed that we would step back a little bit and let them... Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of... I mean ... the point is for us to step back. I know. No, no, no. Just repeating, okay? Uh, and uh no, I have a lot of faith in our very smart residents to figure this out . Good. The list I have Lori's email, which contains the link. Also, we want to let them know our current opinion...We just said we don't want to give it to them, right? I would only suggest a bibliography if you like what I was talking about. Not the whole text. Good. Only a list of references. Oh, yes, that's right. Agree. Agree. Good. So, these are Lori's recommendations. That's what I call it. And then we want to make sure they have salary comparison data . No, I don't think so. No? I think that's what they're collecting. Because I think we should let them decide what the right guidelines are. Which cities, and I think they need to know exactly how much we're being paid right now, so we're going to need to provide that to them. My next question is current compensation and allowances. All the studies, Raleigh,

Charlotte, Wilmington, hmm, and other states that were referenced. Do we want them to review state statutes and city ordinances? Do we only follow state statutes? Did we decide this when we talked about it? Did n't you say we could choose? You can choose one or the other. Hmm, and I worked under a charter because only if you use a charter can you get a fixed allowance, hmm, you know, where it's a set amount per month, and you don't have to track actual expenses. Um, so I would suggest repealing the city ordinance. Regulations. Yes. So we can provide them with a copy of the charter. They have ... Okay. I think that's the question. You know, I think this is, uh, an example of how my own thinking had already gone down one path, which was, you know, salary plus benefits or just salary, but had n't really considered the alternative, the legislative alternative, which is reimbursement. Um, do we want them to explore this path? Um, because we talked about this a little bit about finding solutions here that would create really burdensome systems for staff. Um, and I can't imagine that a reimbursement system wouldn't require significant staff time in this area. Not talking about travel and per diems and so on, but talking about, you know, probably in this area, it's mileage, right? It's like mileage tracking, which is a certain form and a certain approval process. Do we want the committee to look into this? Um, well, if they're taking

allowances, I think they should take everything into account, but I hope not. I mean, again , whatever they produce, whatever they choose, ultimately, I won't have time to track every mile. I mean: Yes. I just can't, I can't . I have to give up the shower. It's like I just don't have time left. We would just give up on it. Yes. It would be very unfair, but if they are firmly convinced that this is the best way, maybe we can let them ask this question: if you go this route, how much will it cost to implement? So that's also a cost. So how would you recommend we implement it? That's actually a very good remark. This is a very good remark. But I think it's worth it for them to leave this issue on the table. Yes. And do n't we have a process for reimbursing employees now? Hmm. Yes. And in fact, the wording of the law is this: if you choose the reimbursement route, reimbursement of actual expenses incurred in the performance of your duties, at rates not exceeding those allowed to other city officials and employees. So, essentially, the way I see it, you're choosing between being reimbursed for actual expenses incurred in the manner in which employees are reimbursed, or a flat rate. And do we have any thoughts? Yes. So you could suggest they consider one of two options. Well, you know, I think we're letting them explore all the options that are provided by law. Or can I try to summarize what I heard? I don't like to travel as much

as others, it just affects me less. But I know that for some people it would be like that . But again, whatever they provide is ultimately a recommendation. So for us. Of course. So we can still thank you for bringing this alternative to our attention, but as politicians. Or we can turn it around and say that we think this recommendation creates these problems. Hmm. Can you help us? This is true. This is true. But I think it wouldn't hurt to start with a broad range of questions and let them go down those paths. I agree. Good. Do you want me to try to summarize what I think I heard? So, in the points of the indictment or the bulleted list, we can say, you know, we'd like you to help us determine our allowances. I mean our compensation. Allowances are not reimbursement or not. Er, general compensation. How and how does compensation increase? These are the main points I heard. Yes. Yes. So let me ask a technical question. Do we consider the benefits issue settled based on our conversation at the working session? I'm going to raise this issue. We have policy 117 which covers all of this. We brought it to the council's attention and there were no suggestions to change it. So, in my opinion, this issue is resolved. Just leave it, or we have a written policy, leave it as written. And now we all know what the policy is and what the benefits are, because, you know, I've heard this and that. I'm out...

Let me clarify. I was offered the opportunity to sign up for open enrollment every year. And I just said, " Yeah, yeah, I don't need that. I have insurance." So I didn't pay much attention to it. I'm sure everything would have been explained to me thoroughly if I had shown interest in the good. I just want to... If you don't need to sign up, then why would you need to... But you would wait, of course. So I just wouldn't ...so flippantly, I don't want to imply that no one gave me any information. I just ... It was information you didn't need until you analyzed it. Right. Hmm, but now we all know, because it really is also a matter of politics. So , from that perspective, I should open my ears and pay attention. This is so wonderful. We don't need to make this part of the advisory committee's work. We can also say that we have decided that our existing policy remains as written. Yes. Look, we are making progress. Good. I don't remember it being related to one of the recommendations. Right. So, nothing will change on the toolbar. OK. A. Yeah, I looked at it earlier and thought, "To hell with it." But, um, Catherine Throgmorton, our staff officer, keeps a list of all the policies and procedures and when they were last reviewed and considered so we can ask her to update the information and say, “Well, board 117 was reviewed by the board in... Thanks, Lisa. Oh, that's smart. You give us some assessment of our work. OK. Are you done with this? So, next, do you want us to record it? Yes, I was going to say that I was sending you something . I don't know. I'll record it on video. OK. So it will be very clear. We'll just look into it. And then we'll bring it back to the board to say that this is an allegation that we ... I feel like we got permission...

Okay. You are giving an instruction. OK. We looked into it. Yes. I think the next step for the council is to present the residents' committee recommendation to the full council. Yes. Okay, this is my move. I'm all for optimization, so this sounds great. OK. We have 30 minutes left. Good. Let's go back to where we were. Let's do this. We'll just keep working on it little by little . Good. So, have we stopped somewhere? On a daily basis? We got a little bogged down in the minutiae of each one, and then I think we stopped and said, "Maybe before we do that, we should look at all of them more holistically, and then we can, as a whole, think about how to work out all the details." “Um, I mean, on the first page, it seems like we went into a little more detail on that, and then we started to pick up a little bit of momentum with some of the others. Um, and we were talking about this category of travel, you know, which includes things like local conferences. What do we even call it? It's not exactly studying, it's not exactly traveling, because it's in the city. So you call this a trip to the city? But that's how it exists now. Then we looked at what the definition of, you know, what you would typically think of as a trip, you know, somewhere overnight, and we looked at different definitions of that. Is it simply defined as an overnight trip? Is it defined within a certain mile radius? I think we reached an agreement on what costs are reimbursed, and it was fairly standardized across the

municipalities being compared. Um, we talked to Lisa about per diems so that they would just reflect the per diems of the employees for travel. Um, that might be easy. And then, um, it was the travel category. Do we want to talk about…” any, I mean, all of this still needs to be finalized. We're not here to, uh, come up with some kind of final formulation, but do we want to keep talking about travel, or do we want to look at training and then come back and look at everything? I had a note in my ear specifically for you to start here, for training. Good. So then let's do it. My note says we were there, we're fine. That's it . Until we got to the study. Good. So learning. You know, we talked a lot about whether you have a list of pre- approved trainings. Morse will be very directive. I mean, they list, for example, the course number of the School of Management. Oho. I'm more inclined to say, you know, I mean, our two most reliable regional, you know, statewide and local organizations are, and there's so much intersection there. League of Municipalities, School of Management. I mean, uh, so I left it very broad, that maybe anything that's proposed by any of these organizations could be essentially pre- approved. This, of course, still does not exempt him from taking into account any dollar amount. the distribution you decide on for each board member. So that doesn't mean it's exempt from consideration, just that it's pre- approved. But any costs for any of these courses will still count towards your total, and they will still go through that reporting mechanism that we developed with the consent agenda. But it's not, I

mean, depending on when we get back to the actual dollar amounts that we talked about on the first page, I mean if we have a threshold of $750, I can't imagine anything from either of those two institutions going over that. So I think in many respects this could probably be in the category of not requiring a council vote of approval. And then, you know, if we decide to define these pre- approved trainings or not, the question still remains, what is the appropriate training? Um, and again, in our chart, we see how some other municipalities define this. Um, you know, Morrisville used the language of serving a public purpose, and they explicitly excluded tuition and degree costs. And this is a policy for their boards only, not including staff. Yes, council politics. Um , sorry. So, I...you know, I mean, the wording that I used here went through the same approval process that we've defined for some of the other categories. Hmm, hmm. I mean, all of these things intersect so much . There's so much overlap between conference, training, local travel, when are these, uh , you know, when are these out-of-town trips? You know, I mean , do we really need that many distinctions between categories? Um, you know, we might be making too much of this. Turn it upside down and have the

board member write a justification for participation. Some companies do this for all courses and trips, you know, but then who approves it? We don't have a boss who would approve this for us. It would be on All seven. Consent or something like that for all seven and for the whole world. So if you don't like your reasoning, then you probably shouldn't go. Honestly, when I was reviewing this before Durham's definition ...appropriate learning. Sorry, it seemed, and I know we're talking about travel to and from your destination now, but it also seems to me that this is in the spirit of what should be allowable educational expenses. Probably better than anything else I've seen. Yes. And I mean, depending on the content of the conference, you know, a conference is a kind of training, right? I mean, you're there to learn. I mean, even the definition between a conference, a seminar, a master class, a training, whatever they call it. That's right. Yes. Yes. Um, but this, you know , I don't necessarily know about subscriptions and memberships. Um, they, you know, it's one of those things that's going to get a little hazy. I don't know if we can avoid some nebulosity. For example, my North Carolina Coalition on Aging, which I personally would be a member of anyway, but it certainly overlaps very significantly with my work with the city. I pay my own membership fees. I am a private member. There are quite a few things I can call Carissa Johnson or I... johnson.carissa@gmail. Come on, come on . But there is also membership , and there is carissa.johnson@carync.gov. For me, these are different types of membership. And you know, the ones that I paid for myself, and these, you know, I would let

the city pay for, but , you know, most of my cases are personal. I would like to see this continue after I am not elected tomorrow, you know, these are things that I am a member of. My Sierra Club membership is like a personal membership, not something city-wide, but if I put a paragraph in, you know, it just becomes confusing and a little weird. Yes. Regarding these memberships, you, as a mayor, also have different needs, right? There are associations, and we talked about that a little bit last week. You know, Jenny helped us with some of the language around organizational membership versus personal membership, because I understand that membership itself is more relevant to this role. And now that role is filled by Mr. Harold Weinbrecht, but It's really Mayor Perry, whoever that is, belongs in that membership. And I don't know that some of these other scenarios aren't necessarily true. Right. Yes. We have, um, a lot of membership fees. So think about CAMPO, we pay there, and try Central Pines South, pay there, Mayors Association, Mayors Association has Central Pines. So, um, we have a place on our agenda where these general, regardless of the person, just the role, apply to this membership. And we didn't, um, pay any individual membership fees that way. Hmm. So, in practice, we have n't done this yet. I mean, not as far as I know. Yes. So, I mean, I'm not inclined to implement it then. Right. Right. So, I mean, I think maybe subscriptions and memberships if I put my little pen on.

They have subscriptions. I don't know what you would sign me up for. would be necessary in the performance of my duties. has been part of our historical way of working, it seems like it has n't, then there's probably a significant demand, and then why get lost in the weeds of figuring out what it might apply to if it hasn't been used historically? And if the board wanted us to sign them up for something, we would offer it to everyone. So that would be... Ah, okay. You know, it would be like if one person asked us to sign up for something, we wouldn't offer it to everyone if they thought it would help them in their role. And you know, now that we're bringing the issue to the board about when we use the funding, that's something we could include in a work session as part of the meeting schedule. For example, someone asked us to subscribe, wanting to know who else was interested. Good. Yes. This is useful. Thank you. And this can then arise through our usual mechanisms, when someone brings something to 3x4, and then it is put on the agenda somewhere for discussion with everyone. Good. Um, okay, well, just continuing in the spirit of ...Overview of all these different categories, let's move on to local rules. I think this is one of the most difficult categories. Um, you know, again, I divided it up, it's a bit artificial and arbitrary in how we classify these different types of expenses, but that was my attempt. A seat at the table with a prior purchase. We talked about it a little bit when the city is sponsoring the event and there are 10 seats at the table. Claims to these places . Um, when that's not the case, and you have to buy separate tickets for council members. Um, we talked a little bit with the lawyers about when this event might be hosted by one of our contracted

nonprofits, and what that means, and how that's defined in our...um, how that relationship impacts our understanding of what's considered a gift. Um, and then, you know, I mean, the main issue for almost every category here is relevance. When is an event considered relevant to the work of the board, and when is it personal? Um, and then, you know, I added this last category, we can cancel all of that out. together, but dinners that are not a formal event. Um, and, you know, I mean, to be frank, it's an issue that I think we have to look at because of the results of the reports that we've received, which, I don't know, a lot of councils have dealt with . But lunches with employees, lunches with constituents, you know, these are not formal events, these are not, you know, lunches at tables, but just a working lunch with a bunch of employees. Do we specify that these are personal expenses? Do we want this to be enshrined in policy somewhere? Hmm. So, I mean, I wonder if these categories and distinctions, even I mean, especially for you, the mayor, who has done your share of these community events in this position, do these categories at all align with your idea of ​​how things happen in the community and intersect with your role on the council. Categories are good, but there are indirect and direct benefits to attending many of these events, such as the nonprofit you mentioned. They are a community partner, and to show support and be a

part of their event, I think that's part of our job. Um, as if attending a chamber of commerce event is part of our job. Um, because it is the business leaders who work in our community who create the tax base and so on. And then there are nonprofits like NeighborUp. Um, they're addressing a lot of affordable housing issues and everything else. They all benefit our community. And, uh, all of this should be taken into account. I wouldn't want this to happen ...I sit down at the table. Sorry, I can't eat. Yes. Um, but I'm here to support you. This is offensive. Yes. For our partners in the community. Um, and I don't think that's what the public wants. No. I think the public wants to know what you are spending our money on and why? Hmm. And that's what you know, and to me it's a simple excuse, even if it's a sentence. I have no problem justifying anything I do. If anyone wants to know why I do something, I'll be happy to tell you. Yes. I'm not hiding anything. Hmm, but other board members who don't have a lot of experience, I do n't know if you're comfortable with that. No, I've thought about it a lot . Hmm, you know, I thought about it in two ways. First, yes, we are individual people who go there and perhaps eat the food that is offered there. But we are not there as people for personal gain. We are actually representing our role there. You know, I don't think my community partners are very concerned, in most cases, that Britney Richards is there. They want a council member from District A to be there. Yes, to show that the city, the council, the community is represented there. Hmm,

and so I think it's important that our roles are represented in these public spaces, even if that role means that we as people or the people who are there can also eat while we're there. Hmm, and also, and I want to phrase this delicately, because I appreciate our entire wide range of community and cultural organizations. And if I could clone myself even as a private resident, I would want to go. to everything, but I can't, and we all have competing demands on our time. And so the delicate part that I want to say, but I think it's part of this conversation, is that if it weren't for this role that I represent the board, I would n't be attending most of these events. Not because they aren't great, and not because they aren't valuable , but because in my personal time I probably wouldn't prioritize that time and expense to be there. But since I'm a council member, it's important right now, but, you know, thinking absolutely right. That's exactly how I feel. Go to one event a year, not four. Right? I wouldn't go to four in one week. That's right. And so I don't think it makes sense to ask us to pay for all these activities ourselves, when we are mostly performing our duties there. We go because we are members of the board, even if there is some small portion, if you want to describe, maybe eating at the event as a private benefit, then fine, then there is perhaps some small private benefit, but it is largely in the performance of our official duties. I bless you. Performing their official duties for a public cause. Hey Jenny, when someone invites us to an event and you write, what you're really sending us is, "Hey, they've invited your

presence, and here's the purpose of the event, etc." " Is the cost of the event included, um, in that form they fill out when they ask a council member to attend something?" Um, that's not true. We usually look for or look at, um, I... Mostly, you know, the activities that cost something are familiar to us, they're usually routine activities, and then we go and find it . We're trying to point that out in this email and say, "Do you want us to use city funds, or do you use, um, your personal, you know , or do you want to pay for it personally?" “We are trying to put this on the calendar. Hmm. Um, but we're happy to add this, you know, as a form to say if there are any costs, um, associated with this event, yeah. related to this event. Hmm. But because I also don't want organizations to be inclined to just give us free food because we can't have that either. Yes. Regardless of whether they are a non-profit organization or not, this is still inappropriate . Hmm. Um, and I agree with what you said. You...That's absolutely correct. It's a strange line of what falls within our purview, because, to put it delicately, we're invited to a lot of things. Yes. Some of them have only one endorsement between me, Carissa Johnson , and this organization that invited me to their event, which is that I hold public office. Yes. But this has absolutely nothing to do with the price of potatoes. Um, but they would really like me to come to, um, their screen printing business launch event. Well, whatever it is. Or for so many cultural holidays. And I just like that we have a

lot of cultural celebrations. Yes, but some of them really believe that it's a matter for the city or the public, for the greater public good, if I showed up . Yes. This is the value. It's not that I'm not going there and learning about government policy. No. I'm going to meet with voters, express my support, and do everything I can to... And I think it matters, but it shouldn't . Again, I don't think it matters that I show up. I think it matters to them that the council member shows up, and that's part of that job. Hmm. Because it's very easy for me on a Saturday afternoon to say, "Does anyone care if I'm there?" "Yes. Me. Yes . I'm sitting in the audience. Um, because we're also invited to these events, right? Where maybe even your interaction with the voters is quite limited because you're in a darkened room watching a play. So it's easy to ask, "Would anyone miss me?" "I don't know. I don't think they 'll miss me. But the presence of a council member gives their organization, whether it's recognition or legitimacy or connections or respect or esteem or not? So that's something that's significant and important about the council's participation in these events. Even when you're absolutely right, there's not necessarily a tangible exchange. It's not an opportunity to learn. But the thing is, it 's a strange job. It's not, you know, in many ways it's very tempting to draw analogies with the private sector. You know, that's how the world of work works. It's not a job like any other sector. Um, very different. Um, there's something intangible about your presence at a dinner, at a speech. Intangible. 90% of my interactions with constituents are at events. Um. The vast majority. And it's a place where people

can come forward in person . It's important that I hear them in my own ears, not always by email. So there's a lot of... " value in just that kind of multi-way communication channel that events are usually. Hmm. So I, you know, between the events and the event registration, um, if they're public. For me, they just need to be listed somewhere. So I went to this thing. You know. Yeah. And I mean a monthly calendar. I don't care what it is . It's just, you know, we list your. We got a quick overview. So your schedule at a glance is on the website. See? And they... That's appropriate. And we update it. And it shows where you're headed. And it says that this is the official role of a council member. So, you could go there and we could go back and look at, you know, things too. But we just put out one week, and we update it on Wednesdays. Well, I've never seen that. I'll have to look at that. Yeah. I'll have to share that with you . As a follow-up to what you said, I have a point about nutrition. in... generally, whether it's us or the staff. I think one of the things that the general public doesn't appreciate is the hours of work. Uh, we often work during the main meal times. I don't think it's inappropriate for me to have lunch on the city's dime if I'm working during lunch, if I'm working during dinner . Um, I don't eat Tomahawk steaks or anything like that. That's, you know, that's true, but I, I, I don't eat at McDonald's either. Yeah, you know, a reasonably priced meal, whether it's me or the staff. Our staff also work during a lot of meals. Sometimes more than once a day. I think we've gone too far in the direction of no food for anyone. Um, and I think what we need is not a change in food policy. What we need is a change in

behavior that management models. And so we, I think, have gone too far here, and then we've gone too far here. And that reasonable middle ground, I think, is quite achievable. Um Everybody, I think. And I've heard you put it very well. Harold, the vast majority of transactions were appropriate. There were a few that were very inappropriate. Um, that's the behavior that we need to deal with. Behavior. But also attitude. We forget about the attitude that it's okay. When some people think it's okay, you have a problem area. Um, I think we'll deal with that attitude. Um, and then I think common sense will prevail. I just ... I don't think you have to take any... the word I want to use is discretion. So if the staff is working full-time and they want to order a pizza... You know, if there's weather conditions, if there's a peak day , and everyone's here for 12 hours, order Panera. I don't care. That's right, I don't think it's inappropriate at all . And that's one of the challenges I face when I talk to people. They don't say that we we're angry that the staff or the board...food. They're angry that there's such waste, and that's a word that's not appropriate in the context of, um, really expensive meals, you know, and so I think it's all attitudes and behaviors that we need to control for these high-end meals, but I think the rest of it is discretion, I think we should allow ourselves some leeway. Hmm. And there's a staff working group that's working on...

staff food. You know, it's part of the various recommendations that you're all looking at. So there's a staff working group that's looking at updating the policy on that. And that's good. And so they will, because the policy is already there, but it's not being followed everywhere, is it? So it's something that's been updated over a long period of time. After a while, yes. Yes. So let me ask you this. Who makes the decisions about food with the staff and the board? Does the board want to be involved in that? The person who works in the restaurant is constantly calling irritation. When I was president of the mayors association, I worked with Reyes and... they lowered the cost of the meals to $30 a plate. Hmm. I think that's a deal. That's possible. Do we want to get involved in that? That, I mean, to me, that's really an operational activity. Yeah. And we shouldn't . And if we have a staff committee working on it, do we have to be involved in that, even if the council is involved? But we seem to be ignoring what people are complaining about. Right. So. And that Ray dinner, if I remember correctly, was it $63 a person or something? No, I have no idea. I know. Yeah. I... I don't remember, I wasn't involved in that . I didn't know anything. I was just there. And like I said, I weigh 148 pounds. You can take my meal away from me . I don't care. It's... I have to I mean, it just doesn't matter. Are you being a jerk again? It's not about the food. Well, yeah, so I would say there should be an obvious ceiling. Um, but saying, you know, you don't need lunch to cost more than $9. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, I also go on record as saying that I completely agree with you . I mean, anyone who's ever watched one of our work sessions, I'm sure, has seen that dinner is provided on those nights , a modest

pizza dinner or some sandwiches. Hmm , those nights can go on so late. I'm constantly amazed at the dedication of our employees and the hours they put in. I'm not interested in taking pizza and sandwiches from people who have worked all day and could be with us until midnight. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. And just to get back to what the State Auditor's Office was asking about, which you're all paying attention to, - meals on board trips. Okay. That was what the focus was really on . I mean, I think that's great, as I said before, yeah. You need to look at all of that together. Um, but the specific recommendation here was to, um, tie it into the meal policy on board trips. And okay. Staff has a policy on that. And that, yeah. Per diem would be the easiest. Yeah, I meant to say, we should follow the staff rules. I just meant to say, I thought we had already agreed to just follow the And as the auditor's report points out, you know, a lot of the examples are where per diems don't apply because they're local. And then, but they still used the per diem for travel as a guideline. Well, if per diems did apply, that's how much you might expect to pay for meals. Yeah. And so, you know, that's why I got off track. That's why I knew, that's going to be particularly tricky. So, per diem is per day, what does that mean, or is it per meal? Uh, the way we set it up, and I don't remember the numbers, um, but there's breakfast, there's lunch, and there's dinner. So, you know, breakfast is $7, lunch is $12, and dinner is $15, or... Whatever the numbers are. Um, that's not right. And it's so specific. For example, I just went to a conference. I went on Wednesday afternoon. So I'll get a per diem for dinner on Wednesday, but not for breakfast or lunch on Wednesday, because I didn't go until lunch. Right. So it's not exactly per diem,

it's actually per diem. So when I was traveling for a living, God, a long time ago, we had per diems. And so, and actually, we had lunch on top of the World Trade Center when it was there. That was so long ago. But to do that, we actually skipped breakfast and had dinner at McDonald's or something like that. But we could go there and have lunch there. I mean, that's how we did it back then. And it makes sense, because if you budget a certain amount of money, as long as you don't go over that budget, you know, and you don't waste money. And per diems are how the staff does it. Again, I don't have to give any receipts. They know I had something for dinner on Wednesday night, you know, so you don't give a receipt to prove it. So it's very easy for my staff. It's just automatic. Okay. As a timekeeper , I failed. The past time is 6:33. I think if you decided to do something like that with per diems, we as staff would write you an email and say, "Here's what you're getting." And so you don't have the ability to object and say, "I'm really late." Or I didn't do it like that , you know, like that." Because employees like to fill out a form, and it's a little bit more, but we would just write you an email and say, "Here's what, you know, we're submitting for your reimbursement, and it's going to go to our paycheck. Yeah. Will it be taxable? Yeah. Because it's another fringe benefit that I don't have. I can tell you in a couple of weeks whether my project is taxable when it comes in. Yeah, I'm curious... Hmm, but I would say it would be, I think, some taxes, because it's a flat fee, not specific reimbursements, right? Yeah. Okay. So it's actually 28.6% or whatever it is less than what you actually get back. Done that way. So we want to continue next time with what. That's my question

, Mayor. Is there anything I can imagine going in one of two directions? Just like I tried this draft, I'll try it in the decision points. Well, I feel like we've made some... Yes, we're close to the decision points , I think. We would like to present this to our colleagues... Yes, because we agreed on... here's the threshold, here's the scope. Not the scope, but how about I do that then? Um, I'll take this document and our hours of conversation, which I'm very grateful to be able to go back and review the notes and turn it into a presentation for a potential way to present this to our colleagues so that they can actually develop a more final version of the policy. Um, but this is something that I can bring back to us for the next committee meeting, this is a draft of this presentation to bring it to a form for the board to consider. Is that where we are now? Yes. In the meantime, between today and the next committee meeting, Jenny is sending out a revised letter. What else do I need to do? Yes, so we'll take the correction to the email and send it out this week, and, um, we'll start, and then we'll see what our responses are, but, maybe we'll keep you updated as it goes along . If we publish it this week, that means it'll go to the October council meetings because they're gathering their materials right now . I'm sure they can. Yeah, and we should probably inform everyone so they're absolutely clear, at our 3x4 meetings because there's going to be a council representative at each of these advisory council meetings and they're probably going to be reaching out to their council representative with some questions. Just to make sure they know what we just

discussed, we decided not to be too strict about the information they use to make these decisions and I'm sure you'll share the email with the council so it shouldn't be... yeah, it should be more than a few minutes at each 3x4 meeting just to make sure everyone remembers because it seems Bella wasn't there. Okay, so this will be new for her. And Bella won't have a representative because she BOA, because she can't. But she will be with the new creative board as soon as you ask me to appoint. Yes, yes. Actually, a representative for that? Yes. I think it will be this first and then that, so okay. Okay. Thank you. Okay, that's fine. Thank you. Absolutely. Always. I always have a couple, two or three.