Town Council Work Session - June 2026

worse than next week's analysis. And that goes like

Mhm.

I mean the issue with the project

to work. And will you get to the agenda? Please stand for the pledge. We need it.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for

Thank you, everyone. We have student day going to chat today. I will get to get everyone with the series of Boston

All right.

Thank you Mayor. Good afternoon Mayor and Council. We have permission to items. The CSX railroad location study will relieve the light year item. Great. We'll give you a quick update on that and then partially headed into August with our friends from voters. They need a little more time. We'll get into that. That should be a quick run. So I'm going to turn it over to Shannon.

Diane wants to kick him in the chin.

All right.

[clears throat]

To kick it off, thank you. And thanks so much for some time today. We're here to share the set the uh findings of a very technical study related to the CSX switching operation. Um and I'm going to introduce uh Steve Harness with WSP. He's going to deliver the presentation today. Uh senior vice president. And he did all the work for the study. And then uh Daniel Sproul with Kimley-Horn. Uh really appreciate their partnership. Uh Daniel managed the study and they were our financial partners on this effort. Um this is the first small step in what you're going to hear uh will be a lengthy process and quite expensive process um in working to help move the CSX operations out of downtown. Um but but it is a good step and it helped us to establish uh coordination conversation with CSX, good understanding of what will be required um and what we need to do next. So I really want to thank Steve and Daniel

for their efforts in keeping this project moving forward. It took a lot to you know continue that coordination and keep it progressing. And with that uh Steve, do you want to come on up and they'll see we'll walk through the findings and recommendations. And then we'll have time for any questions you might have.

Shannon? Good afternoon everybody. Um so

[clears throat]

what we'll do is we'll just kind of walk through the agenda um and then we'll we'll dive in a little bit more details of of our study. Um so kind of start out with the purpose of the study as I think some of you may be familiar with that. We'll just kind of go through that for folks that aren't. Um we'll go through the study history, kind of the timeline. This has been going on for a couple years now so just kind of give everyone an understanding of what we've been doing over the last few years and why things may have taken a little bit longer than anticipated but just kind of get you up to speed on where we stand today. Um some of the findings from our study that we've done up to this point. Um the initial study scope uh has changed and I'll kind of talk about that a little bit from from the initial scope uh to what we actually ultimately did for this part of study. And then um we'll get into some of the costs associated with this scope change. Um and then last we'll we'll talk about recommend next steps, you know, what I what we recommend as kind of the the path forward to continue this project forward. So the purpose of this study um so we evaluated the existing facility that's in downtown Apex uh included their facility. Uh they've got a small maintenance yard and then all of their rail switching uh tracks and operations that are located in and around downtown Apex. Um so obviously the the the ultimate goal is to is to move that out of downtown. Um um for some other for for some other reasons this year um lot of community

concerns uh block grade crossings, you know, trains are coming in and stopping and blocking grade crossings. Um you've got trains that are idling overnight. Um, noise and vibration concerns, air and pollution uh concerns associated with the trains idling. Um, some of the other safety concerns, in my opinion, um, you know, CSX always says uh they want to keep trains away from people and people away from trains. So, best way to do that is to move their facilities out of the downtown area. So, um uh this uh study was led by uh CAMPO uh with a partnership with Apex. So, that was kind of the the group associated and and involved in this study. Uh study history. So, again, we we started this back in the spring of 2024. That was when we developed our initial scope uh for the study. And initially, the study was to evaluate sites um where we could relocate their existing facility to. Um just kind of think of where downtown is. We were mostly looking in the in the south, moving this facility to the south and out of downtown. so, we had started that process. We were under, you know, underway and working on identifying different um properties that that this thing could fit on. Um we finally got a meeting with CSX around summer, July 24th. And during that conversation, they kind of gave us a a broad overview of what their operations look like in this area. Um they currently serve about 10 customers in this area. And what they do is they have trains that leave Apex, they run north, serve all their customers, or certain customers, all the way up to Durham, and then they return back to Apex. And it's basically done in in one day. They serve different customers on different days. But in general terms, they typically take about 12 hours to serve whatever customers they're going to serve for that day.

Um and that was kind of the one of the the the key issues is the crews that are running and operating these trains and these these service runs are maxed out to their 12-hour limit. Once they hit 12 hours, they have to do a crew a crew change. And they didn't want to do that. So, any further south this facility gets moved, now they're looking at a shift change or crew change. So, um and one of the biggest reasons for the slow operations is this train only operates at 10 mph. And that's based on the classification. That's that's um this track is class. Um so, the maximum authorized speed for this track is 10 mph. So, you can imagine a train creeping along at 10 mph up there and then back. That that's going to take a long time. So, um So, fast forward to January of last year. Um we finally got some feedback off from CSX. We've been asking them, "Would it Would CSX entertain the idea of upgrading their track from class one to class two?" Class one is uh 10 mph. Class two is 25 mph. So, obviously increase speed quite a quite a bit. Um they had several internal conversations and they finally got back to us in January and said, "Yes, we feel that's something that we are interested in doing. Uh we support that um that effort." Um so, what we did is we were essentially waiting to have that answer and we were basically working on things that so that we could turn right around and and and move uh quickly. So, in February, we developed a revised scope. You know, the initial scope was to look at different sites. Now, the scope is let's evaluate the Durham Spur. The Durham Spur is the key track component from Apex that

Durham that that that CSX CSX is using. Um so we revised our scope to evaluate the Durham Spur. You know, what would it take to upgrade that track from class one to class two? What type of infrastructure, what type of capital improvements would be necessary to do that? uh so again we In January um I'm I'm sorry. So February of last year so we did that. We were already, you know, planning to get in the way and then we kind of hit a bump in that in order to have CSX participate and be involved in the review of our study we need to have a preliminary engineering agreement. That's this is a typical agreement most of these class ones require. And this took some time to get kind of work through. So essentially there's you know, there's an agreement between whoever the sponsor is and a railroad um then they have to have a consultant on their side come on board that they use to review the plans or study or whatever it is. So that took some time. So as you can see through February 25th, finally we got PE agreement in earlier this year early January January this year. Um so while we were kind of waiting for that we were working on things so that we could turn right around and submit to them the report. So in February we submitted them our draft report of the Durham study evaluation. Sure.

Um if we model the doubts on the upgraded track to class two will that indeed allow us to improve the operations at the downtown because they're most of the time is just spent standing still and whether at the customer side or something, right? Even upgrading the track might not buy us enough time to the additional distance um you know, to and from that, that's

Right. So,

It's all automated.

This, the Durham Spur is is one piece of the overall puzzle that we would need to know and understand

is this possible. The other part of that is we'll talk about it in a little bit, but this is a piece of a larger network. And in order to understand how everything operates, we would need to analyze from a railroad operation standpoint, the northern part and the southern part, the S-Line, and then the the part where it connects into in in Durham, a full kind of network, so to speak. That wasn't part of our scope. We initially wanted to at least see from a cost standpoint, what would it take to upgrade the Durham Spur. You know, what's the current condition look like? Let's at least get some magnitude cost associated with that part first, knowing that this is going to be a multi-step process. We need We need to know more about the overall network. Um, so I guess to answer your question, we don't quite know yet until we go through the next phase and understand a little bit more about operations for the whole network.

Um, okay. Um, I'll hold my question.

Okay. Um, so as part of our evaluation, again, we did a high-level assessment. We went out, evaluated as much as as much as we could. We didn't have full access to the entire corridor, but where we could get access, we evaluated the track structure, track condition. Um, we looked at the rail ties, ballast, all the bits and pieces of it. Um, just to kind of give you an overview of some of the existing conditions. Um, the rail age is it's got some age on it, so 75 to 125 years old in some in some areas. Um, from from what I could see, it's in very good working condition. Um, I didn't notice any rail defects or any know, areas that concerned me. Obviously the age is some concern that would probably be something that we would have to discuss with CSX, but again from what I could see it looked like it was in good working condition. The ties were in overall good condition.

Um there were spots where I think there would need to be ties replaced. The other part which I'll get into is the tie spacing, you know, the distance between each tie and the rails. When you go from class one to class two they have to get tighter together. So there's going to have to need be need for more ties along this stretch of track. The ballast which is the stone kind of the top layer of stone was in very good condition. I noticed areas where they had reestablished new ballast and some long stretches. So again from my from my perspective it looked like it was in good condition. Drainage of the overall network in the corridor I didn't notice very you know there were a couple spots where there was some low-lying ponding areas, but nothing that jumped out to me as a as a large concern. We didn't evaluate as a couple cross culverts that go underneath the tracks. We did not evaluate that as part of our study. That's something that would need to be done in the next phase. There are two bridges rail bridges that are on this corridor. One is brand new and another one is fairly new. We did not do any structural analysis of these bridges. Again from my just evaluation high level they looked they looked fine, but again another analysis further deeper you know more structural analysis would need to be done to make sure that and then the grade crossings. There's 23 of them. So there's a quite a large number of grade crossings along this stretch of track. Again, most of them are in good condition. There were a couple that jumped out to me. One of them is a a hump crossing, so it sits up a little bit higher than the crossroad. Um and then there was another one that had some some minor uh pavement repair that would be needed, but all in all, it seemed to be in very good condition. I'd say overall, the

quarter looked really good um from my perspective. So, um So, again, just kind of diving a little bit more into the details of what does it take to go from class one class two? And most of it's uh the track requirements. Um so, the track alignment itself. So, just for example, let's say um the track alignment can cannot vary. For class one, it can't vary more than say plus or minus an inch. Track two or class two might be plus or minus half inch. So, those those just get a little bit tighter for each of these um parts. So, again, track surface, that's the track profile. It could be something similar where the the the variances are a lot much tighter um constraint. Um track gauge, which is the distance between the two rails. Um obviously, that's very important because that track that um dictates whether you've got wear that and you know, kind of uneven uh wear on the rails. It can also wear down the wheels on the on the trains if they're not in in the correct um alignment and and track gauge. Um rail joints, so where the rails are actually connected together, um there's requirements between class one and class two, obviously a little bit stricter on class two. Um and cross ties, that's to me is the biggest one is the spaces between each cross tie is is shorter. It's narrower for class two versus class one. So, um and then associated with that is the additional frequency of compliance checks. So, for class two, you have to go out and monitor and evaluate the track more often than you would for class one. So, there's You say more maintenance, but there's more checking on it to make sure it's it's within the tolerances it needs to be. Um so, after we took the you know, did

completed the evaluation, um we used uh state rail plans, we used information from FRA to at least develop some high-level costs per mile for the different components of the public track. Um and um so, we kind of broke these down into the kind of the major components, the rail, cross ties, ballast, drainage. And you know, based on the information we found from these rail plans and from FRA, we kind of looked at um different scenarios for each rail component. Um so, for example, so for the rail, you know, if you were, you know, able to utilize used rail and and the the I guess the improvements that you would need to do associated with the rail were minor, we would use uh a smaller range, so $200,000 to $700,000 per mile. If you're essentially going to rip out and put out put down new rail, obviously more expensive, um so now you're looking at $800,000 to $1.5 million per mile. Um so, based on our assessment of this track and kind of what I saw, we felt like the lower end of the of the kind of used rail seemed to be more in line with what I felt was necessary for this. Um so, we went with $200,000 per mile. Um cross ties, um, again, from what I could see, it felt like spot replacement made the most sense. I don't think we would need to do a wholesale and just completely take out all the ties for 18 miles. Um, I used that kind of the upper end of that lower kind of, um, threshold uh, the 300,000 per mile, mainly because, um, the cross tie spacing is now going to have to get narrower. So, there's going to be more ties needed to make up the distance between, um, Apex and Dark.

Um, ballast, again, from what I could see, the ballast looked in very good condition. Uh, we used 100,000 per mile for that. Um, you know, if you would If you saw areas where you had, you know, drainage issues or something of that nature, you would probably go with a higher, um, cost per mile there, the 300 to 600k. If you had to do heavy work and you were undercounting and had to replace, you know, the the the entire ballast, um, then you would use that, but from what I could tell, it felt like the lower level made more the most sense. And then, as far as the drainage, you know, again, there was minimal areas of ponding, nothing that concerned me. Um, so, we we used the lower end, the 50k per mile, um, for that. So, if you take all those and kind of, you know, look at that in in sort of a summary snapshot, taking these different costs per mile, applying them to the quarter length, um, you can kind of see just a a high-level look at what each of these, um, different components would cost. Um, so, you get to a total of around $12 million for all of these. We We use a high contingency just because, you know, at this late you know, at this phase and the level of detail that we're at and the fact that we weren't able to see the entire corridor, we felt like a 50% contingency may make sense just to get us a a general idea of you know, what what kind of order of magnitude cost are we talking about. So, again, if you factor all that in, just a little over 18 million is kind of what we were looking at from a ballpark standpoint. Um again, I think you know, there's more to be done from an evaluation, which will be the next part of the phase, next part of the study. Um you know, full analysis of the entire corridor, you're looking at drainage, you're

looking at structures, uh more conversations with CSX as far as the rail. Um from conversations with them, they did have some had some concerns about the age of the rail, so there may need to be more rail replaced than than what we were initially anticipating. Um so again, just to kind of give you a framework, this is this is where we were kind of standing at at least at this point in time. Um again, just thinking about that, well, how do you pay for this? What are some of the opportunities that could be used to pay for a project like this? So, we you know, we've identified some of the federal grant programs um that would be that this project would be eligible for. Um the infra the infrastructure for rebuilding America, that's more of a general um type grant. It's not just rail related, it's rail, it's roads, it's a lot of other different types of infrastructure. Um you're probably looking at mostly the CRISI, um potentially the RCE, which I'll get to in a sec, but CRISI grants um a lot of rail projects um specifically in the North Carolina areas have used CRISI grants. Um and then um BUILD is very similar. It's more of a kind of holistic, uh, type grant program. This used to be the formerly RAISE um, program, um, similar to INFRA, um, and then the rail railroad crossing elimination program. I think that is a a good opportunity. There are 23 at-grade crossings along this stretch of track. I think as part of the next phase, that seem that should be part of the analysis is to evaluate all the grade crossings. Is there an opportunity to close some of those, um, whether just to close them or whether there's grade separations associated with those. So, I think that should be definitely part of the next phase of the study. The next steps, um, so again, you know,

continuing to further this analysis, um, rail operations is going to be a a big big component of this. Um, from conversations with CSX, they're they're wanting to understand and know, you know, not just what's happening along with the Durham Spur, but what's happening north and south, um, their full network and how is how are those trains that are servicing along the Durham Spur, how are they interacting with all the trains that are operating on north and south of the Durham Spur. Um, so really doing a more more in-depth analysis from the operations standpoint, um, and then completing the full inspection of the Durham Spur to really get a true understanding of of the infrastructure and capital costs associated with that upgrade from track from class one to class two. Um, and then the evaluation of grade crossing closures, uh, because there's so many to me feels like this a big reason why they're only able to travel at 10 miles an hour along this track. Um, so there's an opportunity to close some of these crossings, that could ultimately help them um, increase speeds. And um, so it's just thinking about these uh, components, um, you know, just a high-level estimated cost to complete the study would be 300 to 400,000 um, to continue this forward. Um, and obviously, you know, associated with this next phase would be exploring other grant funding opportunities and kind of digging digging into that a little bit more to see, you know, how best can this qualify, what, you know, what um, opportunities are there and how can we structure it so that this is competitive with other projects throughout the country get funding. So. That I'll open it up for questions. Yes.

So, um, this section of the railroad only

used um, for the train commute from Phoenix and all right?

It's a freight line. Yes, so it's only freight railroad.

Okay.

So there's no passenger um, trains on this track. Is it possible we can be the, you know, uh, stop using this section of the railroad and use other transportation methods to do the, you know, uh, freight transportation? It's so expensive, you know, if you just try to move several miles. It's 80 million dollars. If you use trucks, it's much, much cheaper and much faster, more efficient. Why they still have to use in 21st century, 10 miles per hour using that freight? I don't understand. Sorry.

That it makes me that's a that's a CSX uh, it's it's their it's their line it's you know it's how they operate so I think that's that's something that would need to be discussed with them but um

If no other you know trains pass that route only the freight line between Apex and Durham it's easily very easy to be replaced with much lower and more efficient

[clears throat]

place and much lower cost. So that's my argument why we have to spend 80 million dollars on this. If we just stop using it all the problems solved. That's my opinion. Sorry maybe not popular.

[clears throat]

Do you have a question?

Yeah um So this is all predicated on I'm trying to look at the South Way Spur or the

North side of the CSX. Is it just [clears throat] not feasible to get them in the development?

Yeah and I I think we eliminated the possibility. I think so because of how close the S line and the Durham Spur split is. Um I don't think you can but from their operation standpoint I don't think you can move it any further north just by the way the track configuration is laid out. Um you know where where where the Durham Spur comes in and ties into the S line I mean and then their facilities directly south of that it I don't think from an operational standpoint they can go north. It has to be south of that facility.

go south of that still on the S line.

Well they they I mean I I think it's mainly because they're building trains in Apex. They're sending them up to Durham and then back down. So I I mean I don't I don't know if there's any opportunities along the spur but I I think that's probably another question for them from an operation standpoint. From what we were hearing from them, it sounded like you know, the only opportunity would be to the south just from their the way they're operating things. But again, the the ship change in the cruise and the time I would say the speed is what's really driving.

Yeah. Yes, they indicated that moving north was not an option for their operations.

[clears throat]

Um kind of building on what Councilmember Woo just just said. Um you got to close this funding options and then kind of the remark about it making this project competitive with other infrastructure projects around the country. Um given that this spur has such a limited use, I like is that even a realistic assumption that grant funding would be available for a project like this. Again, like given this it's limited utility, no passenger

rail, single operator, 10 customers. I I just have a hard time believing that that plays out against other infrastructure projects around the state or the country.

Right.

Have they

Uh I have any other any questions for you?

Oh, okay.

Yeah, I think um honestly to make it competitive, I think that the grade crossings is probably going to be a big component of that because there's so many of them. I think that's a real opportunity to be competitive in that way. If you If you can eliminate crossings and show how you can do that, that to me creates a safer environment for the community. That's a big component of some of these programs. Um safety is a huge component of some of these programs, grant funding programs. So

It will also exponentially increase the cost of the project.

Potentially, but you know,

If you grade separate, I'm

saying if there's an opportunity to just you know, if you consolidate crossings where you eliminate a couple and then by your existing roadway network, you might be able to utilize that and just close crossings versus grade separate. So, there's again, to me there's I think there's opportunities to at least evaluate that and see how best could you keep costs down, but still eliminate as many crossings as you could. I mean, ideally you want to get rid of all of them, but you can't.

So, and and I I think you mentioned something at the beginning of your presentation. Did you evaluate whether these were in need of roadway crossings or driveway crossings?

There are a few private private driveway crossings. There were a couple within there. So, most of them are public grade crossings, but there were a few that were private.

Oh, and they said it's between here

Between here and there.

Okay, so a lot of those aren't even they're ours. Our Correct. All right, most of them are private.

Okay, um my question is have they ever

uh suggested just to stop using that section, you know, um and change to much uh more efficient and lower uh cost? Like [clears throat] just use tracks distance. Um that's one, you know, one question. Another one is if we were going to proceed, right? Eight, just eight with this um you know, move all these uh station, can we I mean, can CSX actually contribute to the cost of the project?

I guess to answer your first question, we have not had conversations with CSX about

Maybe we should.

Um That's

That's their whole business. That's how they make money. They're not going to make money if it switches to trucks.

Okay.

So, I think volumes are the key drivers. You you see these freight rail cars that are 50 ft that that are bigger than a fuel truck. 10% truck. Like if each car needs to be now converted to four trucks and you got four 50 of them. Right, that's a lot of trucks on the road, so. I'm Yeah, it's it's an interesting, you know,

Yeah.

concept to it. You can model it out and then you understand kind of the cost comparison. Because they either are cheaper to be able to do that or they can do

Right.

I mean, you assume.

I'm pretty sure.

[laughter]

With all of these ideas, I think it's important to think about what's the benefit to CSX. Uh yeah, we have to think about what opportunities are there to benefit CSX with any of these projects because there's no reason that they need to do any of these things.

Yes. [clears throat]

Sorry.

Um the 18 million is you know, the burden lands on Apex on the residents is too much. Yeah.

Well, and I think that's why the federal grant opportunities are identified and

we can work with CAMPO um to you know, see if there's opportunities to you know, prioritize the next study uh through the stock process, through additional planning funds, through the weight transit funds. So, there are opportunities, but I think that is a key message is it's something that we need to work with our regional and state partners to move forward. It's a very high price tag.

Good question in the number sets you provided because I didn't see anything. I'll be Let me know if I'm missing it. Land acquisition? So, this is all within their existing right of way. So, again, this was assuming that we're essentially doing just what track improvements within their existing right of way. So,

Okay. Because I was I was assuming that that I assumed that there would be more space to move the switch yard further south.

So, this was strictly looking at the Durham Spur to the initial scope that we were looking at. Yes, there would be property acquisition for a new siding for their new facility. Yes.

Okay. And that And that figure is not incorporated within the safety.

Correct, it is not. It is not.

[clears throat]

I have a few questions.

Sure.

Uh thank you for the clarification. Much is uh result of actions of a lot to think about. Um the first question is actually more broad and then I have more specific questions. When municipalities make these considerations, is it essentially kind of a a fingerprint each one is very unique to its own thing or are there municipalities we can learn from in terms of the trajectory on how this has worked for them?

Um I'm assuming that there's probably

some municipalities that have a similar condition or similar similar situation. I don't think we've done much research to and dive into that more, but I I I assume that there needs to be some need

to go dig around and look at

This feels like something that somebody else has done has dealt with. Um Sure.

So, before we actually started this, CSX shared a couple of studies. Greensboro was one. I can't remember. There were two municipalities that had worked with them. Um well, it's not, you know, exactly comparable, but related studies to fund improvements to CSX to achieve an objective of the West Palm. they were much more detailed. It was the examples they shared would be more similar to the next level of study that Steve pointed out as a recommendation.

Thank you. My next question and and one kind of quick aside, just a level set. From my understanding, this is my first time getting a presentation on this. Uh is it safe to presume that CSX is fine with operations as they stand and we're the ones coming in and There's There's no pinch points for them. Are there any future pinch points for them? Or is it, "Hey, our trains are moving. We secured these tracks in the 19th century. That's We're good. Like, you folks built around us." That's essentially

It feels

Okay. The way it is.

All right, good.

So, I wanted to level set on that terms of incentives. There's very We're the ones who have uh the mo- the motivation here. CSX does not.

Yes.

So, I just wanted to um level set on that. Try to put it in one injection there.

Yes, so I agree with what you're saying

there. Sounds like Steve does um

There's no other way to do it.

But

[laughter]

the one thing just in talking with the rail division part as part of an outside of this study is that, you know, can be a carrot sometimes with CSX is getting back to the su- the cross the closing closing through the separation that can be a benefit.

Thank you. My two non-fun questions to ask. One is the bridges. You said there's two. There's two Do Do does who inspects those? Does the CSX inspectors on themselves or FRA does that? And is it is it the same classification as uh surface transportation or I'm sorry um uh motor vehicle transportation where you've got structural structurally deficient and then functionally obsolete bridges and there's classification or grades within that? Is it similar?

Yes.

Okay. But I imagine that could be It's a big unknown in that regard.

It is, but one of those two bridges go in the last couple years. Yes. You're talking You're talking very fairly new structures.

So

the other one I get I don't know exactly when that one was built, but these aren't bridges that were built 100 years ago. [clears throat] So

So that's good news.

I wouldn't be too concerned about that in my opinion.

The one thing that stuck out when um uh it when you're just talking about their response to this assessment. I I believe you said something about they were perhaps either uneasy or would like to have seen new rail instead of used rail and so my Is that Did I hear correctly?

Yes. And I think they're what they were getting at was FRA has minimum requirements for each track class. Base They were kind of

is basically alluding to that we shouldn't just shoot for the minimum because if you just shoot for the minimum, all of a sudden you fall out of compliance. Now you got a headache to deal with. They felt like it might be something to think about where you may want to put a little bit more into it to go a little bit of above that minimum threshold. And rail was one of them. They they mentioned the age of the rail, that could be something where CSX may say, "Hey, this is a 100-year-old [clears throat] rail, you know, we may want to see something newer than that." I mean, you could still find used rail. I mean, there is used rail that is not of that age, so there could be an opportunity to actually relay used rail versus brand new, so it's cheaper. Um but yes, the the whole point of that was not focusing on the bare minimum that's needed to go from class one to class two.

Thank you. My follow-up final question though is a follow-up. Do you feel comfortable then with the minimum on your range at the 200,000 per mile at 18 and 1/2 miles when the range I think for used was like 2 to 700 and then like new was much higher?

I do because of that $6 million. Again, from from my from what I saw, I didn't notice as much if anything that needed really needed to be done along that corridor. It's in really good condition. Um so again, another $6 million on top of that if you need to replace some rail, I I I feel like that feels warranted. Okay. Now again, the the one thing that's not included in here cuz this is strictly evaluating what other is what other potential capital costs are needed because of the operations from north and south of this piece. I don't know what that is because we haven't done that part of the analysis. There could be other potential improvements

that need to be done. Um they're probably minimal, but it's more just understanding, okay, we've got trains running between here, you know, Apex and Durham. They're interacting with trains that are along in Durham. They're interacting with trains on the S line. How does all of that work? And now that we're doubling the speed, how does that really work? Does that and then okay, now we're going to move your facility a mile or so south. Can we still make our runs, still meet our cruise ship limits and all sorts of things? So,

[clears throat]

it may not be a capital cost improvement, but there may be some other costs associated with the full corridor that's not included in there. We're just watching that.

The potential to have costs would be crossing or signals at the crossing that you're doubling the speed. Do you not have to?

There's I mean, there are signals. There's probably some um adjustments and things that would need to be done at the crossings um because trains are now coming through.

Sure.

Um so, yes, there is a There's probably a small cost associated with some form of upgrades associated with the crossing flashers and gates and whatever is at each crossing from a protection standpoint.

Can you Can you help me understand um You've got a big picture, but just the high-level shape what the steel would look like. I mean, CSX this is a privately owned Normally, they have an annual maintenance budget where they spend on these same upgrades on the country, right? If hypothetically we are on the same wavelength as them, there would be a similar There would be some calculator what it costs for them in the future. Are they bringing anything at all to the table for the private or are they just like, "You do it and we'll talk and we'll let us know what you have in mind."

So, I think from the early on conversations, it didn't sound like they were willing to participate much from a dollar standpoint. We did have some

conversations about maintenance. Now, that hadn't hasn't been fully um I guess I don't think there's a clear understanding about who's maintaining what cuz some some the dialogue we've had, it sounds like they were making it sound like the sponsor, the owner, whoever the the project owner I should say, not the rail owner, would be on the hook for any annual maintenance requirements.

Okay.

The initial conversation I had with CSX made it sound like, "No, we're good. We're okay with the upgrades and we'll take on the additional maintenance requirements." So, I think there's a little bit of a disconnect between my initial conversations and and now. So, I think there's more conversation that needs to be had about the maintenance thing. So, they

So, back to what I said about the shape of the deal, so they're being paid money [clears throat] to be upgraded. They have some plastic track. And they would still own it. Let's say they would pay a wayleave, but they want us to maintain it. And then we have to negotiate that would be on top separately. Would they be then expecting us to purchase and build a new facility, and they would sell us their facility, and there would be some cost there between the two, but value would be old versus the cost of new.

Yeah. So,

[laughter]

um yes, we would need to purchase and build replace the facility if they were to move out of downtown. Um they may still not sell us that property. That would have to be a separate negotiation. They're not typically inclined to sell their property. Um so, that's not, you know, even necessarily a trade that we would get. Um

As a matter of fact, we had discussions along the way unrelated to the study, but just in general about being CSX in the community. They wanted to potentially talk about parking garages, but if that land could be utilized, and they were excited about that idea, but ultimately it would end with them still having

ownership of that parking garage, and having a company that they utilize that charges for the parking there. So, they would operate that parking there.

So, they would build it and lease it and manage

They they would build it, operate it, and monetize it and and make money. They They have a very robust, we learned, real estate department. Um and they are making best of some of the real estate around the country. One way they do it is by parking garages, but then they retain it and charge for that parking today. So, we did have a discussion where I I think they had somebody con- They reached us, talked about festivals and different activities, looked at volume. Uh so, there was some interest on their part about being able to use it. Did not sound like they were interested in selling it all, operating it.

And that's probably good on their part because they need They need the yard now.

Yes.

And the parking garage could be separate from Cuz there is room for something there.

Okay.

If it left, or or if it stayed, it's still potentially build a parking garage.

Yeah, that was that was what we talked to them about.

Um and then just one more thing about the the deal or relationships, we would continue to have to pay CSX to participate in the next study as well. So, there's Is there a for-profit company? So, everything that they, you know, participate in in terms of reviewing Yeah, everything. We you we you would you know, the the study the funding we'd have to pay for that as well.

Okay. What's the closest which you station? This is like 17 mi away from there.

I'll answer.

So, hey, before we go through all of this, I didn't want to do the next study phase. I really would like to see whether a simple upgrade to 25 mi an hour is actually going to be able to accommodate another, say, 35 mi round trip. You know, distance to be covered, right? Because again, like if if they spend most of their time loading and unloading at a place, and

the actual travel time, and though it's human 10 miles an hour, it's obviously a subset of that 12 hours. Even if the train moves a little bit faster, you know, when it's moving, but it doesn't necessarily guarantee that they can cover another 35 miles on a daily basis. So, a lot of this is predicated on on the assumption that there's a place to relocate the switching station to. Short of building one for them, which is going to be expensive. Like, there's other ones that are already on the track that, you know, seem to have capacity. But, you know, we need to maybe be sure that we can cover that distance. And so, it feels a little bit premature to me to go spend a couple hundred thousand dollars on a next phase of study if we haven't done the simple math of, you know, does it even solve our problem?

I don't think the expectation is that we would use an existing switching station. I don't think that we the operations would move that far. It would be much closer to the existing station.

So, how confident are we, or, you know, um applying for grants, and the grants can actually cover all, or at least most of the cost. How confident are we?

We wouldn't be able to move forward with applying for the 18 million grant at this time. We'd need that additional study that was recommended.

So, what is the, you know, main reason for we do this project? Uh the complaints from the residents.

And there's a that is also an interesting thing. They do block traffic around town, which impairs, you know, our fire department from getting through sometimes because of that. And so, there's there's security concerns there. We also have, you know, tankers parked downtown. And we do not know what the content of on that side. So, it's very old. So, to

move them out of town, I think it's is a good thing. And I'll leave the first two, you know, leave the parade if you want to get there. Um I'm just, you know, based on on what we're seeing today, I think again, like I I I feel like, you know, we're studying diesel line that's, you know, without and then our proposal proposing a solution to upgrade that line without really knowing what's, you know, what that leads us to and where that switching station is going to move. I would feel like we're we're missing a key piece in the analysis here for me to be comfortable to say, "Yeah, let's go spend another $300,000 on the next phase here." Right? I think we had a possible solution identified, whether that's that switching station to the south or but, you know, because we're now talking about a brand new switching station, you know, that's $18 million, there's no longer $18 million. Right? And then again, given the limited use of this this spur, I just don't think of this as a competitive project. And so, that's, you know, where I'm I'm not comfortable with this in terms of like where to take this next.

You mentioned there's 10 customers that use this currently. Is that the total needs to this spur those 10 customers or are there 10 that go through or that if they didn't have those 10 customers, they would be

I mean, it it's a big part of it, but I mean, they they connect up to tracks in Durham and serve that They've got customers up in Durham. They also continue further south on the S-line. So, I mean, they're this is kind of a piece

piece of 10 customers or not?

Correct.

You know what those 10 customers are?

Um I think they gave us a little bit of information. They did it pretty close to the vest as far as who they are and what what services they provide. But again, it sounded like that they had opportunities to expand and have

additional customers. Which is [snorts] which is the reason why they were open to the idea to upgrade the track. So, it didn't sound like 10 was going to be it. They felt like there was more opportunity for them to have additional customers out of that if the track is upgraded.

And I think one of the one of the Um not to possible only talk about it, but um this project was also included in the Forget the name of it, Daniel, but the strategic rail investment study. Close enough. That was done um for weight transit and to to guide what future investments might be needed to increase opportunities for passenger rail. And this was identified as one of the needs. So, you know, there could be and I don't think we understand enough about that yet either, but there could be um benefits to future passenger rail on the corridor if some of the switching operations were moved outside of that. Um so, still kind of a gray piece, but there's another potential funding source.

But let's just do it for our sake. Does it connect to something? I thought it was just a dead end. Like it was basically just an out and back.

It It connects to tracks in the area.

It doesn't. Question about those. I think I need to direct question to Sam. Um are they looking to incentivize CSX? That don't look like that's a tree or bargain at by next thought is incentivizing Is there any If those additional customers could come on, I wonder if they're big hitters interested in and would see the

opportunity to connect with rail perhaps Again, I know that that one of the big funds coming to us. I just wonder what this conversation look like. Talking with folks who are like, "Yeah, we're about to expand our business X percent and it would mean that contribution to a project like this is beneficial.

Maybe I'm not I'm not sure how we would get into that conversation.

Yeah, but it's from data, right? Because they have I'm I'm Yeah, I'm not about It'd just be about talking to those potential customers and saying, "Is this something you'd be interested in contributing to?" And they may say, "No, thanks. That's a bigger bill than I'm actually going to make profit." Or they may say, "This is the minesweeper of all things." So this is software and you throw in a couple hundred thousand dollars on a project like this is uh is a drop in the bucket compared to the profits of our day. You know?

I'm just wondering like what's the legal basis for you to allocate to send 20 million dollars on freight and private companies and infrastructure? Like I always think about the downtown stuff, I mean, and we argued about it before. We got to get the season whatever in order to make it. You know, there's we're so cautious about how we invest our money. It seems like this is very casual like, "Oh, yeah, we'll just set aside dollars to upgrade the rail line." Yeah, I'm not I don't know what we'll do with it. Like it seems like it You telling us to do this and just This seems strange. If this were CSX, it would be a very different conversation, I suspect. But at the end of the day, CSX is a private company, private infrastructure. But, they're just saying, "Upgrade for us and we'll do our best to push it forward if you want to do it." I mean if you stop $20 on CSX stock, you know, like there's something that just didn't seem strange to me as to why they didn't do it.

And your best case scenario is they give us, you know, $20 and we can increase

the speed. The best case scenario, but most likely they're saying to you now is give us $20 or we're going to keep the rail or we'll upgrade the line or we'll keep operating as is.

Who gave you $20?

$20

I I've got a little lawyer on my shoulder that I hear saying, "What's the public

Yeah.

question. That's generally the foundation there. Yeah, $20 for public purposes. The question.

About 20.

What?

When AB talked about That's what he wanted to talk about.

10.

Right.

Yeah.

But, it's it's not just moving them out. You're going to have to build them a new facility, right? They and they have told me that point one, you would have to build them a full facility with bathrooms, restrooms, and all that stuff. When we talked about moving them up just up to the other spot to see if they could come back, they would have to have a restroom there before they get, you know, with the spot you had talked about moving them just to see if they would stop and then probably take and have restrooms constructed to be able to go there.

So, like CSX is kind of hampered by our federal union agreements, right? And so, the 12-hour limits and the facilities that need to be available there and stuff. So, the little building out here actually is a full facility that has like locker rooms, showers, and everything that these crews require for the agreements that are in the union agreements. So, it's not just a matter of finding places. I mean, you know, they're being replicated. that facility that if they just couple of them and they just have to have downtown too. And so it's um again I'll be the first to to share with my team that he's on our team but I just don't see the information we have right now like a viable path to actually do that. So this

something else needs to happen maybe either just early to become a public use right where we open it up for for passenger rail or something like that that now connects Apex to you know Durham and then you know transfer there to you know go wherever, right? And and now we're actually talking about improved public transit you know from the area. Um that makes sense but just getting CSX out of town at business expense not even counting the purchase of the land here nor the build up of a potential switching station I don't think it's enough frankly for any to go see us getting the capital grants for this in in in terms of priority in this thing against everything else that is coming.

You know as I think this through even if we were to get the grants and we found the land we acquired it we built it CSX is still under absolutely no obligation with their operations. It's their property they're going to use it for whatever they do. And if they say well you know what an extra 10 miles an hour we may not use that but we'll be able to put some traction by maybe increasing the weight of the number of trains that we're able to use and increase the overall value. I think that's a much more likely option. And I [clears throat] have concerns about an additional $300,000 in studies when we don't really have a a whole set of guarantees that one they're going to use that additional time to actually build out downtown Apex and that they're actually going to build it out again. Those are the basic points.

We negotiate with CSX that CSX funds that 300K to 400K to do the

study. If we, you know, if the study is feasible and we actually got the 20 million grant, then we reimburse them. If we cannot get the grant, then they have to carry that cost for the study. Can we do this?

Excuse me. My understanding is that we're paying CSX to side in the studies.

Yeah, but but

They don't have a benefit

to them to do that.

They they have no incentive to do the work. No. They're just They're just happy with where they are. So, I mean

It's so awkward to feel this situation. And I mean I think the additional Mr. Grant, to get to your comment, um I think the additional study would be needed just to figure out what that agreement would need to look like.

[clears throat]

So, um you know, all the details of operations and the this I mean I I think that's one of the things that this has told us is this is a very difficult expensive problem if we want to try to keep moving forward.

No, I mean I appreciate the work that's been put into this because this really, in my eyes, has framed the issue a lot clearer in terms of all right, you know, what is it that CSX to do? What is it that we have to do in order to to accommodate their overall need? And then so there's a great way to the land as the real limiting factors on the ground. And one of the big limiting factors is let's assume we build that spur out to be 20 miles an hour and let's assume we spend a bunch a couple of millions of dollars to buy land. Let's assume that we use a couple of hundred more millions of dollars to build out there their operational needs. I don't know if we have enough I don't know if we've got any reasonable assurance that they're going to say Yeah.

We'll operate not in that. I mean we could do all of that and they could say We appreciate the extra road space that you're going to maintain. That's You have some great stuff, but we're not moving.

Originally we think they'd be part of the final agreement before we started the process of negotiating all of them in the I agree with you.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean we put in a bunch of money. I mean they're they're going to I mean I'm assuming that if we've got to do land acquisition down south, we want to do that quickly. And at least have the land on hand before it gets out of hand.

How expensive?

And who are you buying from? And who are you buying from? Yeah, it's like are we buying from the

How much is it?

We're going to be looking for space out there and then maybe for the data center that would be connected to the CN side of the story.

Actually it's a real story. Um

[clears throat]

So I don't know. I you know I I appreciate the work that has gone into this and then I do agree that this has got to be a pretty good after bringing the project out of the the challenges are a lot clearer. Because we've been talking in in general for years. Like, you know, we didn't see a CSX match. Um now we have a much clearer understanding of the strains kind of the type of project that we're scoping out here. Um and this is just one piece out of, you know, several pieces. So, again, that that being said, like I I love the CSX move. I just don't see it viable and CSX basically looking at very certain outcomes that they have exposure that will fail and CSX not being under any obligation or you know, having any you know, real motivation to

work with us and all that sort of stuff. You know, with that in mind, I think that spending another 3.5 million in this space under the current circumstances and conditions, it's just not a good conclusion. Um if something changes in terms of, you know, NS line development or potential activity during or real passenger rail development or I think that would be, you know, changing the the game a little bit and at that point, you know, might be a good best asset. With that said, like my recommendation to my public is best possible project for us.

I agree with everything you said. My last January question is just about the grant fund match. You don't need to I don't need to uh uh a probability uh estimate, but like what kind of percentage are we looking at? Are we looking at chipping away at this? It wouldn't or maybe a 50% match by the time we cobble things together. Or is there a pathway where you get close to um or you know, the lion's share of the 18 million that I imagined. I think you did a great job. I don't I just projects like this you could just assume a year from now, especially with inflation and things, that 18 number is the floor.

Yeah, the the grants that you had pointed out, some of them are very large in support. Um, you know, like that S line or workforce, you know, the Richmond route like a Richmond route. That's funded by some of those grants. So, they could fund a lion's share once we really had the case, you know, what are all the benefits, what are the advantages, safety, and so the actual cost um for actual construction. Some of those grants can be substantial.

Yeah, but they have to do that uh study first, right? Spend the 30 the 300 400k.

Yes, and and um if the if the direction is to to not try to move forward with the study um at the town's cost, that's great direction for me to have. Um it would also be good to know if there's interest in trying to get that study funded, you know, partially through other sources.

You just grabbed my and put my final final question is what if we were to put this on ice, how long is it worth something? Or is this essentially we're just My point is is two years from now, I don't know. Something magical happens. Things are working out better and funds are looking brighter and this looks more feasible. Is it if they could this need to be redone at that point? I mean, the board I guess I'm just wondering how long we have if we were to put it if we were to pause it then.

Yeah, I mean, I think whether you decide to move forward now or a year or so from now, I mean, I think we're at a good stopping point I can understand at least what the next step is. So I think this will be revisited in 5 years as it needs to be redone. I will quote you. I'm just trying to figure out what the cost standpoint probably just because the condition is now 5 years older, the condition of the track. Um I don't know what other questions are going to be associated with that, but yeah, I I think you've got maybe a 1 or 2 year window to say yeah, if you still get this going within that time frame, I think you can pick it up from here and move forward.

And and my next step would be to take this and talk with Daniel about, you know, what what opportunities are there for regional funding to help with a study to do, you know, not

That's what I would That's what I would support would be at

the very least pursuing grant funding for this study.

Is there any possibility

Sure, anything ask for anything.

I guess I

Two final questions. Finish one.

This um Does CSX ever abandon these spurs or on the country is that a normal thing? That occurs or a nation of law. What happens if the route doesn't become profitable?

There's a whole lot of money in there.

Um And they they they have abandoned tracks. Um a lot of times they keep property um just because it's theirs. They may somebody they want to come along and buy it or buy parts of it. Um

[clears throat]

I think from having conversations with them about this specific condition, I don't anticipate this one being one of those ones that be abandoned just based on where it is, how it functions. Um So, but I guess to answer your question, I think there is enough there that does happen, but I think in this case I would think that's not a likely uh scenario.

I should have another comment on this guy here like we would have spent $20 million here like they would be better to find a real trail. See, I would agree. And my my last question, um I was wondering if staff you guys have any opinion on what you were considering for this because the word was that this would not be a great opportunity uh for some of the grant programs. Is that something you have an opinion on? Do you agree or do you want to push back like what's your personal opinion on that matter for those? I'm not for sure they had listed on the slide view.

Um I don't I don't have enough knowledge

about all these different grant programs. I think what if the council is interested in at least trying to find opportunities to get help with this project. I would probably talk with the rail division. They have a lot of experience with all of these grant opportunities and CAMPO um to also identify, you know, what um could could there be benefits to the passenger rail efforts that we think that would help to increase the likelihood of getting funding.

Um I'm okay with trying to get I mean to get some regional help or even grant funding to be fun studies. Like, you know, it's always good to to learn. Right? You just not supposed to just spend you know, $20,000 and think $10,000 a month on this, but [snorts] that's it. Because ultimately this is not just an this is not just an Apex train rate of it this does benefit a real quick commercial and I think that there's a regional benefit in that but as it is our portion of the regional would be a huge benefit. You know, it's more of a bird I'm I'm all in.

Along the same lines is there any guidance on a match if you're okay if we 300,000 if we did a 50 match 50% match any thoughts on that? We wouldn't spend any money towards this or cuz as we spoke approached approaching even federally from a local state cooperation statewide there's different options but it would be I have some thoughts on what we would do towards or we just want to get it all funded by What would a timeline look like? On just and you've just gone and put a line in the water and didn't catch anything like that. 6 months a year. I mean I think from a legislative avenue and aspect I've done federal asks yet that opportunity comes up every year.

We can proceed with studies that are difficult to write but they're funds but usually you have to have someone to

Right.

It's cancelled yeah okay.

And um for regional funding our requests are due in October for the next fiscal year.

This one benefits just these islands what are the

I think from Just wondering like does anybody does anybody win if they get this does it do they not want it or

If you can convince them to take [laughter] the new station

This could be yeah right. I think it's

I'm not sure if you guys know if anybody would benefit from Just [laughter] looking for something

I think I think this is maybe if there's a future passenger rail component, but but at this time the main benefit is straight. Um and and I don't for for our requests, that would be October. I can come back to you with, you know, this is what we would recommend as a match. Um I could talk with Daniel and Campo about possibilities. I think that there's there's time for the grants.

[clears throat]

I would appreciate that.

I think that's a good idea.

Would it be reasonable?

Yes.

I'm opposed to putting any money in it, but I'll defer to my colleagues. I mean, but they still get right back to the same problem, which is who can do all of this? They must stay there.

[clears throat]

That'd be helpful if we could get some of those. But I'm I'm hearing a lot of different things. I would like Cuz I do think that if we're going to see something federally, like you know, we would actually face that to have something on so that

But if it's not a desired outcome, Sydney.

So we should cross off the possibility of full funding for a a study that could prove useful for safety and other things. Like I you know, I'm I think the chances are better if we have Yeah. Doesn't mean we won't see something in the future 100%, but I think at least from a federal perspective, we'd like that.

Okay.

So do you want us to go with a natural match or I don't know that we need an exact number yet.

Do you know if there's a willingness I think to put money at the table?

We can come back to you, but if we're the way the federal ones work, you know, I'll jump in, but we would say, okay, we have a $300,000 study, we've got right now. Can you find the other two? That's typically like a 20%

100% That's just 20% is typically the minimum.

Yeah. So,

15 at least think

So, to be to want to say like 20% of 200,000 or something to that effect, is that's kind of the guidance that you're looking for?

That's helpful. It would just Yeah.

We need something to work with.

What I'm hearing, not pursue anything if it's fully funded by the town. I'm hearing there's obviously an option to have it funded by an outside source, with that state money, grant money, what have you. But, if there needs to be a match, then I just think that needs to be clarified in the motion. [clears throat] Does any of this budget exist?

Sorry, I got your question.

budget any budget the initial stuff there

talking about the budget

I mean, like looking at the general shape of the deal, it doesn't look like a good deal at all. So, until something changes, like I think we should just I think we're both agreed that we And then, if something else changed, then I would really want to step back and say, "Hey, you paused this at that time." But, this is what the deal would look like, you know,

if you were to pause it going forward at this point. Or, as you were saying, is there anything now maybe they have to just study a much larger project and something. But, the shape of what we're seeing today doesn't look viable from that perspective, motion

all in favor of the motion

I'm

I'll make a motion to amend the motion. Is it with the caveat they consider grant funding? That

That's my intention. Yes.

Is it 100% would covered?

That would be a total change of the situation.

I I don't I don't mean by outside of that conversation. with

Pause.

It'll be a pause.

But I will say certainly keep your ear to the ground if the situation changes, other opportunities arise that are new. You'll be hearing from me before anything else and ask if you want a pause. But based on what we heard today, like the new Christmas parade, you know, what this what this deal looks like, right?

Yes, yeah. Okay. Bring this pause.

I got a motion there. I'll take that motion.

I.

All those in favor, thank you. Motion is into it.

Thank you.

All right.

Actually, I have a much clearer picture about this now.

[laughter]

through the presentation.

Next topic will be a lot quicker, I think.

[clears throat]

Um we're going to start with the rail parade. I'm not kidding.

And then this one you have Robert speaking on this. If I catch it correctly, if I'm wrong, Robert, you're you're listening, but happy to comment on this. Um but still a desire potentially to come back in August. Confirmation to settle up the next development. Uh so, I'll give you the update. We've had several meetings since we last spoke. We had our our big meeting with Rotary representatives from Rotary last week. I think it was last week. And we talked about four real options as you as for the Christmas parade. So, I'll hit those real quick and talk about limitations and things that the group

tried to eliminate from the table. We wanted to get council feedback. So, four options really the traditional Christmas parade, which is as it's been done every year. We can talk about limitations on that. A modified traditional parade. The uh I don't know what we're calling it, but I'm going to call it a stationary parade. So, the concept is that people people would walk the parade route, and the parade would stay in place. And then option four, I'm kind of lumping multiple ones in option four. It's any of the alternate routes. Still a moving parade, but we may have a crossroad four. We talked about just different different roadways or Duncan. So, that's option four. So, we we talked about those. Rotary, we talked about that with some of our experts that are in the little back of the room. The gist from the meeting was that the best options at this point would be obviously the traditional and then the modified change. So, what we've talked about is the timing of when a decision has to be made. Uh obviously, the parade I think is 29 end of November, very end of November is the parade day. Uh and so, from a staff perspective, we felt good letting the downtown project play out more. Uh we've had community with uh Christmas here and we've talked to them about this. We've had meetings with the contractor. Uh they said they don't want to be known for stopping Christmas parade, so I think they're committed to do what they can to to help us. Um that this year it doesn't come at a cost, um but they are willing to be at the table with us to see what can be worked out. Uh but we the unknown is what will the downtown roadway look like on the day of the parade. And so, absent knowing exactly what that looks like, can we plan for traditional parade? And if all lanes are open and everything's great, traditional parade can go forward. There are a couple things I'll mention with that piece. If we're still at one lane open, that's where it becomes a little more problematic because of the lane width and their estimates and one of the things we've got to tighten up over the next month is what do we think that lane width will look like when you have

safety barricades in place and things to keep pedestrians safe. Uh the tie back of the curb, so it's kind of a mess. We can flow into the roadway and have to keep people safe and then also have the other side of the road, so that the lane closed. So, that lane width could be anywhere from 8 to 10 ft. We think We hope it's going to be more on the 10-ft side. But when you start to look at parade vehicles, it gets very tight. Even if you I think our fire trucks are 8 8 and 1/2 ft, so the fire truck that's in the parade that would give you a foot maybe, so you're talking 6 in on either side which is not a lot of clearance, so Robert did a great job representing Motoring and I think they identified nine nine vehicles that were kind of oversized loads or vehicles that may have to take a pause on this year's parade if you go down to one lane. So, we're working through that limitation if we are down to one lane. And then that's when we also started to talk about a modified tradition which would be bringing the parade downtown as we always have, so it would start and stage anywhere. We come down and then we would have a diversion point at Saunders. Chris has already had some preliminary conversations with the contractor that they could help us kind of get up Saunders a little bit because they're using it for storage of equipment, supplies, but make that open. And if we're down to one lane, you would have the walkers continue in the open lane downtown. So, the pedestrian part of the parade, the bands, they would have to modify because they go 15 wide, they might have to go down to eight wide or modify that formation. And then the motorized vehicles would go off on Saunders and potentially go in the Saunders lot to demobilize, get people off the floats. Um that would be a modified tradition if we're down to one lane. Those floats could not go through downtown. But we've also talked about the concept of just eliminating all of the floats that we felt like would be too tight. And so, the entire parade would go downtown through the one lane that was down to eight and a half or 10 ft and then what

it looks like. So, that's on the table as well. So, the group landed on obviously a a if we were going to go with the stationary parade, that would need to start happening now, but there's not a lot of desire for that type of parade from from Motoring's perspective. I think they're more at a boat, nobody nobody kind of bit on that one. So, that's a decision point that would have to be done now, but it's like that would be off table. Uh The ultimate routes were maybe a third choice, but are not as desirable as the traditional non-traditional. Um, another trade-off with the modified traditional is you would lose part of the Saunders lot if you're taking it re-mobilizing. One of the great concepts that we've heard about keeping the parade downtown is people would come there, they would support businesses. Um, but then if you're taking away part of the parking lot, um, how would that be viewed by our downtown businesses um, as well. So, we're hopeful that we can plan for a traditional parade. Um, both lanes would be open. This is again just describing ideal conditions. The both lanes would be open and the parade could go as as has before. Uh, if not, maybe 3 weeks out to give us time to modify the route, plan for that. We could say, all right, we're going to divert and do the non-traditional piece and do the version, like I said, down Saunders and then still continue with the pedestrian part downtown. Parade route, as well. Couple things that are unknown on that would be still the lane width and what that looks like and the four ratings are going down. And then the issue of um, liability and insurance. So, that's a big point of discussion, kind of why we pivoted to having Rotary come back in August and talk a little bit more because they typically they carry insurance for parades, multi-million dollar policy. Discussions with the contractor, even though we have travel in one lane is open, it's still an active construction project that has not been turned back over to the town. And so, it's Chris, jump in if I say something different here. Um,

it's it's allowing for a normal operation on the one lane traffic. The viewpoint of is a parade considered normal operation? Maybe, maybe not, and so there are some discussions we need to have with that, but if something gets damaged during the parade in an active construction site, For our our contractor, he's going to want someone else to make that call if he face that. So, then the question becomes who does that? Typically, the town would not provide that liability coverage for anything that happened during parade So, the event holders which in this case is the Rotary would potentially have to cover it through their policies. I think they're exploring what that looks like in terms of cost and their desire if that's something they would entertain. They are responsible to do so. That became kind of the the biggest sticking point is because it's still a construction site, a project that has not been turned over to the town. What if something gets damaged? What if someone gets hurt? Who covers that liability? So, we're continuing to explore that as we also been tightened up with the contractor on what potentially it could look like and we think a little more time with that would help us. Kind of kind of where we are. So, timing issue, insurance issue, but focusing on traditional and modified traditional

With the traditional, and I'm assuming I'm asking this with the assumption that essentially the one side is completed, basically we're kind of do a pause act for a while and then downtown essentially will be kind of operating one side of the street and three different side, not and then after pause act, we will essentially resume operations. And basically close out the other side. So, the the cost of that on is what you're talking about.

Yeah, I mean in in that scenario, I think what you're saying

a pause for the parade, but there's two day pause.

Or or longer. I mean, I'm just asking in terms of that. Well, whether it's a

That gets costlier the longer the pause. Well, here cuz with the recent pause that we had getting change orders to be associated with that. So, like I said, Brown will work with us, but it'll come at a cost. So, if we pause for the 30 days, it's X number of dollars to pause that. But, they're working on it.

Is there anything

Uh just depending on where they're at. But, they're they're not moving. So, they're still not moving. If you still want to do something down stream. One lane and other things come into play such as saving on benches and stuff. I know they're important to re-asphalt where the benches gave some ending of the first phase because it's not quite enough to give us what we're going to need. So, there's besides the the pause, it's also extra cost to do temporary work specifically for our client.

Anyone you want to add

anything in regards to this and more so if you're standing.

No.

I don't think so. I mean, that's a little bit of conversation.

Insurance company.

This it's all positive, but they're there's some specific language that the county is getting from our their general insurance company on something that we have to make sure they're holding on their general liability or we have to add to it. All right, general liability. That that language is still kind of part part of the problem.

So, in summary, I feel positive about it completely. It's just we have a little bit of investigation to do beside the contractor from their side of insurance. So, we would like to session August whatever dates are for

that, maybe have a follow up and we have to go over it that August work session and we you do another status check on that, and if there was any additional feedback you'd like to provide, you're actually people might something that you thought about, let us know sooner rather than later. And the banks too, we got a lot of interest in the parade. They said they couldn't all be here, but B E fire, the preschool, transportation center. Mary Roberts put a lot of work into this and bringing it back here with data. So, a lot of people are working

One thing on your business is if they depend on the modification you don't think [clears throat] it's going to take away like that on the parade. It might change the date of the main parade. They might be not big thing bring their widest and biggest float, but bring something small.

Questions?

Yeah, I guess one I mean I don't want to talk about the date because part of how to deal with the end is based the question I asked that we do this the first Saturday every September. The second Saturday the third Saturday. That might be a small four weeks or rather I'm trying to find four weeks. Maybe you know they save it or pull it on the second plane as it kind of feel like we're really on the edge here. I don't know if that'd be a good time. So, the acceleration at that lower rear you guys have time I don't know if we'll go back and look at it.

Baby we haven't necessarily talked about that. There is a Each community have a have a day to establish and a lot of the foot marching bands are actually going to different different parades based on the dates. And we know that our date does not conflict necessarily with

one of our closest dates. everybody kind of has 50 day this been that set for that year that we trip over that. I'm not sure what the regular days will be to our to our increase that have dealt date. Do you go to the secretary of I think we're waiting for I think we're right there. Hopefully.

Do we think that the contractor will have that idea in August as to what the projections are? Seems like a long time to go there.

So, how long would it take us to pivot?

We're planning on a traditional and then we get bad news, set some date, change plan. When is that date? Like obviously if we were out of that problem, but like

With the minor pivot that we've seen using Saunders, we don't we don't believe that's a major a major pivot is important in terms of logistics. Guys, correct me if I'm wrong but that

We We view that as something that we can we can logistically plan for like if you have a couple weeks

notice.

We've got this plan. We'll We'll know that enough out there.

The majority of the route is going to be the same. The reason for the third amount of Saunders and people ask people lots. So, if their clothes have to break down, remove stuff off the table. Those are the ones that we go down Saunders Street. You didn't You don't have to break down anything. Just keep on going down sale up at night. So, that the reason for the Saunders is straight way for them people to take the people that have to break it down, so they can't go down the roadway. And they are on the south end of

So, we don't view the the way we set it up now as a major pivot. So, we feel comfortable making the decision in November. Early November, couple weeks, two two weeks out before we break. Obviously we'll have a lot more.

I have a quick question.

Yeah, the other side of this is you don't know what Yes, you'll be in the desperate situation

we we've talked about that I mean that once completed you'll have a pretty significant side sidewalk there so it'll be more than adequate to be able to keep it open for people going in and out but you also could have some spectators on the one side the finish side. What you know about thank you for those remarks how many vehicles under the modified where you have certain turn off to Saunders how many are we talking talking about those nine it it it was nine but it depends on the ultimate we're refining we'll think the width will be right now preliminary it's a 10-ft lane width it was I think nine vehicles Robert it's on they're going to bring smaller vehicles anyway my point is this may not be as as impactful on Saunders lot as perhaps initially anticipated I can walk with that but that I mean about four side five big vehicles that's just one little corner of the a lot I think they're going to be very bad but I'm going to do it in the street in front of my car like in front of APD the person in the attic photo cop to get space I had to turn right to go to I didn't do it on the local road I went four four five lots four five street over the side I think in order just go down and tell nobody to park there we talking about utilizing the admin lot that's not or just on the extraction street five slots whatever you imagine will be fine take the track on it so we talking a couple of hours just we can certainly look at that if you just have to know what the situation is going forward so we can make that clear with I I think there's some options

[clears throat]

you know what would happen

If you were to look at that, is she like those side areas or is she not?

If we're talking four or five vehicles, nine vehicles, what do you mean?

10 minutes and probably but but if if the lane width shrinks down to 8 and 1/2, we may have more than nine and then we need to utilize Saunders for a little bit more. So, that's why we're finding what we can think we can get comfortable on with the lane width. We could be working with also having Saunders potentially do not split into two.

It could be because we aren't comfortable with it. We can talk about where we have to measure vehicles, making sure that um they do match the the width both mirrors. It could be bigger or we want to make sure we can handle that and couldn't. Right, could be natural.

emails

Anybody? Anybody? Good. We're good. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.

I appreciate it because

Okay.

Anything, sir?

Picture.

You want to

I'm not going to be

Hey, I'm good.

Maybe.