Joint Public Hearing

This little container had a whole lot more cookies in it. because they were a lot of work and I didn't get my chair [laughter] come in here.

You unfamiliar. Yeah, I like that.

Sometime we're on it too much.

All right, we're going to go ahead on and get the meeting started this evening. Thank you all for coming out this nice warm winter evening and thank you Lur. And so with that I will ask for any type of adoption to the agenda unless there are changes or notations to the agenda that need to be made.

Adopt motion to adopt.

A second.

All right. All those in favor.

Any opposed? Motion carries. All right. So, for tonight's public hearing, we have ZTA2-25 storm water updates. And I believe Ike, you will be enlightening us on all of the upcoming and forthcoming things that we have no ability to change. Anyway,

I'm going to check.

Good evening, Mayor Pro Tim, members of council, members of the board. Um, I will preface this presentation by saying we are here to talk about ZTA, but I don't get an opportunity to talk to you guys face to face a lot, especially both at the same time and on my own agenda. So, I'm going to spend a little bit of time just talking about general storm water, what we do here at the town, how the program works, and kind of tie that back into what this ZTA means for our program and why it's important that these things get passed and that we follow the direction from the state. So with that, ZTA 225 is proposing to amend the unified development ordinance to comply with new MS4 permit requirements, specifically dealing with construction site control and their waste. Um we're

talking about building materials, concrete wash outs, things like that. And so I'll transition from here. Um the ZTA slides are very very brief. I want to transition from here and just go back into the basics of what storm water is and how we do it here at the town. So first off, what is storm water? Right? A lot of people when you ask them, they think it's rain. Well, it is and technically it's not, right? It's not really storm water until rain falls to the ground and begins to hit a pous surface like a parking lot, a building, a rooftop, things like that, and it begins to run off. And so that is when we as a municipality begin to worry about it. That water that runs off can become polluted. It can result in flooding issues that are around town and things like that. And so again, the by definition, it is rainfall, snow melt, and all forms of precipitation that flow off of driveways, parking lots, and other hard surfaces into our drainage system. The drainage system can include sewers, ditches, culverts, streams, and roadside swailes that carry that storm water off directly into a surface water like a stream, a lake, a pond. That's also important because as we get a little bit further into these slides, I'll talk a little bit about MS4 and what that means. It's an acronym. Scientifically, you're going to see a lot of acronyms on here that I'll try to remember to to explain what they are, but um it it stands for municipal separate storm sewer system, right? So, MS4S's um basically it is there to define that this water is separate from utilities and things that go through the sewer treatment system. So, anything that hits a road, goes into a storm drain, it's going directly out into a stream, it's not being treated in any way other than by means that you'll see later as we talk about kind of biological treatment on new development projects. Um, and so the graphic that we created is something that we share around when we do education and outreach, but these are kind of the four main pillars of what a stormwater program tries to address, right? We try to address water pollution, flooding, water quality, and infrastructure, whether it be maintenance or damage and repairs. And so, how does storm water fit into that strategic plan that we all know so well, right? Well, it kind of lives at the cross-section of sustainability and

organizational excellence. Um, but we're trying to ensure that regulations adapt to environmental change, hold the endeavor to preserve and protect our environmental resources, and encourage quality commercial and residential development that ages well over time. Here's an overview of the department. Um, we live in public works. We are split into what I would consider two divisions. Uh, one for stormwater compliance, which is myself and a technician. And then on our operations side, we've got an operations supervisor and a construction inspector that handled more of the inspections side. Um we are again what is considered a phase 2 MS4 municipality. That is a designation given to us by EPA and the state uh department of environmental quality. We'll talk a little bit more about that. So I don't want to dive into it but we'll talk a little bit in a couple slides. These are the primary goals of not only public works but the stormwater program in general. One is always protect the residents but also protect the environment. And then we also want to maintain compliance with that MS4 permit that is issued to us by the state. All while trying to maintain a constructive relationship with internal and external stakeholders, which is easier said than done, but also plays a role in the ZTA that we're going to talk about a little bit later. And so again, a little bit more on the permit. The town has been a phase 2 since early 2000s, 2005. Um, that's when we received our first permit. These permits are issued on a 5-year cycle roughly. Um, and we were audited by DEEQ for the first time back in 2023. We were successful and we received a compliant which was somewhat rare. There was only about 20% of MS4 municipalities in the state of North Carolina that got a compliant. So something we're proud of and something that you know we were very very happy to to get back. Um but during that audit, we were notified that there were going to be some changes made to the new permits and the storm water management plans that we were going to have to implement as part of those. And so we received our new permit in early 2025. One of those conditions required some changes specifically to our construction control waste ordinance to make sure that we were addressing pollution concerns on active construction sites. And so again for MS4 compliance, this slide here is again talking about, you

know, based on population for that phase 2 designation. Um these permits are designed to reduce discharge to the maximum extent practical. That's a very important concept to think about when we talk about MS4. Um, it's never going to be perfect, but we're going to try our best and we try to implement best practices that limit the extent of pollution that can occur within our jurisdiction. Um, and again, this is all achieved by implementing what the state and what the permit call our six minimum control measures. And so that is what kind of is the foundation of a good stormwater program and what we're engaged on from a compliance perspective when the state comes to audit. Those six minimum control measures or MCMs, you'll hear me refer to them as are listed here. Number one is public education and outreach. Right? We can't stop pollution if our residents and commercial developers and things like that are not aware that the things that they're doing could be causing pollution. And so it's our duty to reach out to them, hold events, provide that education to them to inform them of these things, especially when it comes to our ordinances and things that change over time. Number two is public involvement. And so we do have to have efforts in place such as litter sweeps and things to again provide that education but also get the community engaged with us and talking about storm water realizing the impact that it has on their everyday life. Number three is our elicit discharge detection and elimination. That is going to be a very important discussion point for tonight which we'll go into in a couple more slides but that is where we're trying to identify sources of pollution and eliminate those from our MS4. So if we find a spill, if we find a cross connection from a sanitary line, we know there is a pollutant source. we need to identify it and eliminate it so that it does not continue to occur. Number four is our construction site runoff. So, uh this is relatively new for the town. In 2023, we requested to seek delegation under the SPCA to run our own erosion sediment control. So, this is all your active development projects that you guys see come across um and approve. When those start construction and they're actively land disturbing, we are responsible to go out inspect routinely, make sure that that sediment is not getting off site. Um, important fact to know is that the number one pollutant by

volume in state North Carolina is sediment. And so sediment can be very detrimental to to surface water such as streams, lakes, bodies like that. Um, so that's a very important it also plays again in a crucial role in tonight's text amendment because a lot of the waste that we're going to talk about and that this is referencing is happening on these active development projects. Number five is going to be our post construction and new development. And so again, these projects that are coming across and that you guys are getting to look at and review, um we have to ensure that not only are they planning for the development they're building, but they're planning for the storm water and how that's going to be treated, right? Both from a volume perspective as well as a nutrient load. And so we want to make sure that all development occurring in Nightdale is meeting the minimum control measures outlined by the state for volume so that we're not flooding downstream properties and we're not flooding properties that are getting built in Nightdale, but also meeting those uh nutrient goals. We are part of the news river nutrient management plan and so there is a threshold on the amount of nitrogen offsets that they can have from these new development projects. And so as part of that review process we do for construction drawings and sorts that is something that we cover to make sure that they're meeting those goals. And then lastly is pollution prevention and good housekeeping. This is us looking at ourselves. This is our actions as a municipality. So everything that the operations crew in public works does from street sweeping, leaf pickup, trash pickup, uh fleet maintenance, those things, we have to make sure that we're doing our part to make sure that our operations are not impacting storm water. Right? So we have to have best practices in place. We have to have spill response procedures in place that staff are trained on to make sure that if we do have issues internally that those are not contributing to any type of storm water pollution. And so again, the two I want to highlight tonight are going to be your elicit discharge detection and elimination, which I will refer to as IDE just because it's a mouthful to try and get that out every time. Um, and then the construction site runoff controls. So what is an elicit discharge? Right. So primarily for us in storm water, it's going to be those things we mentioned before, the cross connections, the someone dumped oil into a storm drain while they were changing their oil in their car, things like that. A very direct discharge. However, there are examples and situations where it's not so apparent, right? So if

someone dumps oil into uh an area of their yard, it may not be directly getting into a storm drain, but it has the potential over rain events to migrate from that soil into a storm drain. And so those are also considered elicited discharges. Um our ordinance specifically defines it as any spill, dumping or discharge into MS MS4 that is not composed entirely of storm water. That is a very vague statement that can include a lot of things and it was intended to be that way because again anything that is not storm water should not be discharged into the storm drain. However, there has been instances in the past where that has been wrongfully interpreted um both internally and externally. And so part of the ZTA that we're talking about tonight is to provide better clarity. And so we want to add some language to our current ordinance to make sure we're specifically stating what is allowed and what is not. That way it's easily interpretable, it's concise, and it's it's something that we can work on and also point to in an enforcement situation. Um, that being said, all discharges to the MSR are not considered elicit. There are a there is a list in the UDO today that has a list of things that are allowable. Things like firefighting activities, things that save loss of life, immediate responses and things like that, as well as um you know drains from AC units of your house, um landscape irrigation, uncontaminated groundwater, things like that. So there are things that are not considered elicit that are listed as allowable. And so from a permit perspective, what does that mean? So, we know what an elicited discharge is. What is the town's responsibility as far as that program? Well, every time that we find an illicit discharge or we're notified by a resident, someone in the community of a potential discharge, we're required to investigate it, determine if it is in fact an illicit discharge, follow up, and have it make sure it's cleaned up or contained in the best way possible. And so, there's a lot of leg work that goes into that from a staff perspective. We have to make sure that we're following up thoroughly. we keep that documentation because again it's something that we're going to be audited on when the when the DEQ comes and so

and and also in some cases we have to escalate that to enforcement and handle it as a code enforcement case. Um all violations relating to list of dischargers are referenced as a violation of chapter 9 which is again with the zoning text amendment we're proposing tonight as a part of and so this again is why it is very very important that it that our ordinance is clear it's concise and it's very easily interpreted by someone look from the outside looking in. We want to make sure that if we get into a situation we're having to enforce something on somebody that it was very clearly stated beforehand that this was in violation. Couple photos that I'll just talk a little bit about. Um the photo up top is actually a grease uh spill that happened at a a local restaurant. And so again, grease is something we don't necessarily think about in the storm realm a lot, but uh unmaintained grease traps at restaurants can become a problem if they're not maintained. They can get into storm drains. that grease can cause havoc on infrastructure such as pipes, drop inless and things like that and also can pollute waterways. And so in this case, um the responsible party had to go back in and steam clean and jet out that entire line to remove that grease. Um which was a lengthy and costly process. And so in those situations, again, we want to make sure that our ordinance is very very clear that this is something that you're going to be responsible for that it cannot happen, right? Um the other photo there is two what we call booms. Um, this was actually deployed during the FedEx accident that we had a few months back, if you recall. Um, quite a lot of diesel fuel was spilled into an unnamed tributary um, off of Lynwood Road. And so, there was quite the cleanup that had to occur there, as well as documentation. Um, we're talking folders and folders of documentation that had to occur to make sure that that was correct, not only to protect us, but also to make sure that we were doing our best to assist DEQ in their further investigation. Um, all right. So when we talk about ID and we talk about construction sites, there are very specific related items to construction that we don't see a lot outside of active development. Things like concrete, wash order, litter, building materials. If anybody's driven through a development when vertical construction is ongoing, there is a lot

of contractors. There's a lot of people moving around. There's a lot of trash that has to be, you know, taken care of. And so these things can also contribute to pollution within storm water both from just floatable materials like plastic and bottles and and things like that but also anything that they may have carried so solvents such as paints, stucco, things like that. And so when we went through the audit with DEQ and we were notified that there were going to be changes, they they primarily harped on the fact that our ID ordinances now that we implement not only in Nightdale but across the state do not really speak to these sorts of things right on construction sites. And so they wanted us to make sure that our ordinance would be um applicable in these situations to enforce as part of chapter 9.4. Um but we did not feel comfortable that the language that we had specifically spoke to what we wanted to clarify. And so again this photo I will add is this was during an audit of a site a larger site here in town. Um I think we can all agree that that is not the proper maintenance of a portaotty um both location and orientation. And so this is again the kind of things that this this text amendment that we're looking at tonight are trying to address to try and prevent.

Couple more examples. Um top left is a gentleman washing a a rig that he had on a site. Um he is on an asphalt paved surface. So if we can all guess where that water that he's washed off is going to go, it's going to be right into a storm drain. We've got a dumpster below that. Again, building materials during vertical construction. understand it's going to be messy, but efforts do need to be made by these contractors to ensure that that stuff is not going to generate storm water pollution. Um, the right one again is is primarily the the number one thing that we see on sites is just improper concrete wash out. And so it may not seem like a big deal. You know, a lot of times contractors will approach us and say, "Well, this is going in the ground anyways, right? It's pouring footings and things like that." However, in this form, when it's heavily diluted like this, it is still very alkaline, very basic, and it can very easily reach reach a storm drain and reach a body of water and wreak havoc on the aquatic ecosystem. And so, it is very very important that we have some way to contain this on site so that it does not cause those issues.

With that, that was a lot. We're going to circle back now to kind of how this ties into the ZP the ZTA. So, again, the proposed changes tonight in this application are going to be for chapter 9, section 9.4 4 J1A again speaking to elicit discharges and connections. The current language a mouthful is there. The proposed changes that we're doing with this application are just to again consolidate the list of elicited discharges and specify development related materials in the list of things that are prohibited. So the text in red there that says development related materials such as discarded building materials, concrete chash water, and sanitary waste from portable restrooms is what we're proposing to add. For timeline, we're here tonight at the joint public hearing. If we progress with this uh text amendment, it would go in front of the lur for recommendation on February 9th and then ultimately a final town council decision on February 18th. At this point, I'm happy to answer any questions, clarify anything that we talked about, go back and look at photos if you guys are interested. Um, but staff's recommendation at this point would be after holding a public hearing and receiving public comment, motion to refer ZTA 225 to the February 9th, 2026 land use review board meeting for recommendation and advisory statement.

I thank you so much. It was super informative. Um, are there questions from council or from the LURB? Um, in regards to this text amendment,

I had it was a great presentation. I did have one quick question um not necessarily on this but the how are the illicit discharges reported

how we receive them. So it can be uh a couple different ways. Uh one is observing in the field obviously if we see it we can initiate that investigation. We also utilize cognto form. Um so anything submitted to the town via cognto form comes directly to us and we can investigate it do our documentation. Uh as well as the stormwater hotline. So we do advertise

that on the website as well as all the educational materials that we provide out. Um and so those are our three primary mechanisms for reporting. Um ultimately they can also find our contact information on the website and so my my name and email are there so they can reach out to us directly if they need to.

And do you get several from from those reports or just some that you sort of see or is it combination? Um I I'd say fortunately we don't get a lot of list discharges um reports that that is uh we get more reports through the cognto form than I would say any other mechanism and I think that may just be training that we've done and and advertisement that the town has done for cognto form and all the different elements that it has with it. Thank you.

Just quick question. Uh, one and this was very helpful uh for me. Um, I did have a question in terms of I guess once you realize there's violations there's a fine that's involved and and how much

Yeah, we have the potential to issue fines for enforcement actions. Um, to date we have not initiated or implemented any fines. um those fines are dictated by state statute and so we do have the ability to issue fines up to $5,000 per day per violation and so those can obviously you know stack on top of each other. Um again to date we've not run into an issue where we had to issue a fine most of the time it is again identifying something and eliminating it. That is the goal is not necessarily to find someone. The only time that we would initiate something like that is if we've got no response or we're unable to eliminate the discharge. So often times when you see it, the the developer normally just takes care of it within a duration of time.

For construction related items, it's difficult. Um I think part of the reason we want to include this in that ordinance is because up until this point, we've not enacted our ID ordinance to address those items. Typically, we would address it through our erosion control and those those inspectors that we have that do that portion of the the program. So I think that's an intent of this text amendment is to make it easier for us to enforce

it. Any other questions? Okay. Oh, go ahead.

Um, you had mentioned the cognto form. Is that something that's available online for residents or is that more what's the difference between that and the hotline? Is the phone call for an online form that fill out?

It is and cognitive form is not specific to storm water. So, every department has their own cognitive forms. That way they can receive uh input and reception from the town or issues from the town. Any resonant, it's on our website, it's publicized. Um the Highline is an automated voicemail that goes directly to me and is our preferred method because a lot of times folks can record exactly the circumstances that are ongoing at that point in time and we can have a record of it to to check back in on. Um but yes, the co cog ungun form is not specific to us in stormwater. It applies to all the departments of the town. Excuse me. I have a question. Um,

when it comes to your department investigation, enforcement, that is only

Yeah. So, the unified development ordinance applies to both town limits and the ETJ. Um, however, in circumstances where we have elicited discharges out outside of town limits, typically that would be a referral to either Wake County or DEQ. Um, they also have ordinances in place to address those items. So, in some circumstances, we would address it and follow up and do the investigation. In other circumstances, depending on the severity, other folks may be involved from Wake County and DEQ. And I think I had a follow-up question to that. Um,

so do you all also monitor construction sites that are in ETJ areas as well?

That is correct. Yeah.

That's it. Thank you.

Additional questions?

On one quick one, I was wondering u after you get that message on the hotline about how long does it take and you contact the person who calls it or you just go on out there and see about it.

Yeah, we try to respond as soon as possible. Um I think our average was within 24 hours when we did our last audit and ran our metrics. Um but typically if someone calls, so if it's during business hours, that hotline will actually ring my desk phone. Um it'll go to the automated system if it's after hours when we're not in the office, but it still gets forwarded to my cell phone. So if I do if I'm able to take the call, I will at that point in time. If not, it'll go to the voicemail and we try to contact that person within 24 hours.

Okay.

Thank you.

I have a question about your outreach and um your events with residents. Is that your department specifically doing the outreach and hosting events or is it in coordination with the with the town of Nightdale?

Yeah. So, it's a multi-ep departmental coordination most of the time. a lot of the education outreach, the direct education outreach that we do like tableabling, you know, setting up the table at town events and things like that. That's going to be myself or our technician Mike. Um, but we also are part we're part of the Clean Water Education Partnership, which is Central Pines Regional Council runs. And so they do a lot of outreach on TV. They do um broadcasting ads and they also host a regional creek group that we kind of join in on and do local events for.

Thank you.

Okay. Any additional questions?

We would go another hour and a half.

Bill, we would hit tomorrow.

Bill, I would like to add though, not a question. I think where you all were coming from on this, if you do catch Councilman Busy flushing the radiator on his 442 in his driveway, take pictures and call the hotline. All right.

So, seeing as how this is a public hearing, we have to technically open it up to any members of the public that would like to speak on this matter. Are there any members of the public public that would like to speak? Recognizing none, uh, we'll bring it back to council for any follow-up questions or lurb and then for any action is regards to adoption. If there's no more questions, I'll go ahead and make the motion to uh hold the public hearing and receive public comment. Sorry, to refer ZTA-2-25 to the February 9th, 2026 land use review board meeting for recommendation and advisory statement.

Second. Any discussion? All those in favor?

I.

Any oppose? Motion carries. All right. It looks as if we stand at that also important moment. Uh, can I get a motion to adjurnn?

So moved.

Second. All those in favor?

Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you all for coming out. Short meeting, short and sweet. Um, and happy new year to everyone. And so, uh, do not get used to short meetings for 2026. I'm pretty sure this is an anomaly. All right, we stand adjourned.